220/240v Electrical Question (1 Viewer)

[Vincenzo]

I'll start off by saying, this is NOT something I'll will be doing but would like to gain knowledge if it can be done and approx cost before calling an electrician.

My laundry room backs up to my garage and I do not use the electrical plug for the dryer. Is it possible to come off of the dryer connection to place a plug in the garage and still keep the dryer plug but put a switch that would provide power to only one at a time?

I do not want to remove the dryer plug, but still be able to have access to 220/240 in the garage. I have no room in my breaker box for extra's due to the pool.

Dryer plug is 4 prong

I'd appreciate any input, thank you

Vincenzo

 

[doug720]

Yes, quite easy to do.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Shouldn’t be too hard depending on construction discipline of existing walls and desired location of new relative to old, and just how user friendly and robust a switch you’d like to use... ballpark all things close( new plug just opposite of old box, switch box just above either new or old plug figure roughly 50 in material. Thrifty sparky could maybe shave it to around 30, with bits of wire laying in the truck. Mr. homeowner needs to purchase Home Depot size quantities and bit part pricing. Now your lecky is gunna wanna see upwards of 150 for the best case scenario and all parts in the van... pull cover of dryer plug and see if it’s a skinny or fat box... skinny single gang makes it take longer and maybe needs another fat 2 gang box, don’t stick anything into the box, just take off the cover and look with a flashlight. Take a pic of the plug and one of the back of the wall where new plug goes and text them to mr. Brownshorts so guy can get properly armed before coming over. Trips to store cost extra. Not terribly hard but I don’t rec know-nots dig right in. You could likely do it, but a good electrician will do it cleaner and as safer as it can be... I said a good... anything less and you might consider to watch a few YouTube vids to get comfortable with the process... there are some cruddy craftspeople out there these days... and they all seem sooooo affordable....

 

[e9999]

I'm wondering if the NEC would look favorably on this idea. It does seem open to potential problems. But then again I don't understand why you need to keep the plug in the laundry room and need to add the switch since you say you don't use the former. Can't you just make the old plug unusable with a solid cover or something like that and avoid the switch?

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

They make a water heater timer for just this purpose...

 

[e9999]

This is probably obvious to you, but, of course, you'll want to put a breaker in the circuit that is appropriate for the smallest of the old or new wiring capacity, even if you put a monster plug in the garage.

 

[Vincenzo]

Shouldn’t be too hard depending on construction discipline of existing walls and desired location of new relative to old, and just how user friendly and robust a switch you’d like to use... ballpark all things close( new plug just opposite of old box, switch box just above either new or old plug figure roughly 50 in material. Thrifty sparky could maybe shave it to around 30, with bits of wire laying in the truck. Mr. homeowner needs to purchase Home Depot size quantities and bit part pricing. Now your lecky is gunna wanna see upwards of 150 for the best case scenario and all parts in the van... pull cover of dryer plug and see if it’s a skinny or fat box... skinny single gang makes it take longer and maybe needs another fat 2 gang box, don’t stick anything into the box, just take off the cover and look with a flashlight. Take a pic of the plug and one of the back of the wall where new plug goes and text them to mr. Brownshorts so guy can get properly armed before coming over. Trips to store cost extra. Not terribly hard but I don’t rec know-nots dig right in. You could likely do it, but a good electrician will do it cleaner and as safer as it can be... I said a good... anything less and you might consider to watch a few YouTube vids to get comfortable with the process... there are some cruddy craftspeople out there these days... and they all seem sooooo affordable....

Thanks for the advice, I've installed 110 outlets before and i can kill the power to the dryer, but really dont want to screw anything up with 220 and the proper amps and such.... good thing is the connection would probably be within 2 feet of each other as it is directly on the other side of the wall.

I'm wondering if the NEC would look favorably on this idea. It does seem open to potential problems. But then again I don't understand why you need to keep the plug in the laundry room and need to add the switch since you say you don't use the former. Can't you just make the old plug unusable with a solid cover or something like that and avoid the switch?

We plan on moving hopefully within a year to the Scottsdale area and want to leave both gas/electrical connections. My 110 compressor took a poop and am wanting a bigger compressor as I am in the middle of restoring (not to original) a 72 FJ40 and need it for sandblasting/priming and possibly painting. I'd hate to buy a small compressor again just to turn around in a year to buy a bigger one.

I definetly want it done to code

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Shouldn’t be too hard depending on construction discipline of existing walls and desired location of new relative to old, and just how user friendly and robust a switch you’d like to use... ballpark all things close( new plug just opposite of old box, switch box just above either new or old plug figure roughly 50 in material. Thrifty sparky could maybe shave it to around 30, with bits of wire laying in the truck. Mr. homeowner needs to purchase Home Depot size quantities and bit part pricing. Now your lecky is gunna wanna see upwards of 150 for the best case scenario and all parts in the van... pull cover of dryer plug and see if it’s a skinny or fat box... skinny single gang makes it take longer and maybe needs another fat 2 gang box, don’t stick anything into the box, just take off the cover and look with a flashlight. Take a pic of the plug and one of the back of the wall where new plug goes and text them to mr. Brownshorts so guy can get properly armed before coming over. Trips to store cost extra. Not terribly hard but I don’t rec know-nots dig right in. You could likely do it, but a good electrician will do it cleaner and as safer as it can be... I said a good... anything less and you might consider to watch a few YouTube vids to get comfortable with the process... there are some cruddy craftspeople out there these days... and they all seem sooooo affordable....

A good electrician would not do it because its illegal. Will it work, yes. Is it unsafe, not really but it is not per NEC.

 

[Azca]

Remove the outlet, for now, extend the circuit to the new location. Blank off the old box with a blank plate. You are still limited to 30 amps. Note that technically permits are required for this. Do not rig this, I have seen way too many fires as a result of people taking short cuts on electrical systems.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Remove the outlet, for now, extend the circuit to the new location. Blank off the old box with a blank plate. You are still limited to 30 amps. Note that technically permits are required for this. Do not rig this, I have seen way too many fires as a result of people taking short cuts on electrical systems.

Spoiler

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

You guys are no fun. What article prohibits splitting the branch circuit?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

You guys are no fun. What article prohibits splitting the branch circuit?

Im going to let the teacher answer this @Azca

 

[Vincenzo]

Looks like I may be stuck in a hard spot, really dont want to delete dryer plug, definitely not into rigging it. Maybe its time to just jump in the 60 and head to the new micro-brewery that opened last week and ponder a bit.....

Anyone have or know by chance of any good 110/220 compressors, guess that could be a option

 

[Azca]

You guys are no fun. What article prohibits splitting the branch circuit?

It is not that you are "splitting" the branch circuit, it is what loads are permitted on the circuits. As you have a dryer outlet, intended for a 5kw dryer, which will draw approximately 21 amperes at 240 volts. The dryer has a motor so that changed the way you calculate the load per NEC 422.10(G) which will send you to article 430 for motors. That article, per 430.53 now must take the actual motor in the dryer at 125% plus 100% of the other loads which will bump that 21 ampere load up a little. Can't tell you how much because I would have to see how large the motor actually is. None the less, we are now looking at a load of at least 22 amperes now.

Normally you would size per NEC 210 but, 210.2 basically states you must comply with table 210.2 which lists other articles which amend or supplement the article. So now article 430, per article 422 drives where we are going. So, you technically would be allowed to add another outlet on the circuit provided it does not draw more than 6.4 amps of continuous load or 8 amps of non-continuous load provided.... the circuit breaker was listed to operate at 100 % of its capacity, which it will not be per NEC 210.19(A) the exception so, we are back to a 30 amp circuit, @ 80% of its rating, being allowed to feed a maximum of a 24 ampere load. Now we are limited to adding no more than 2 amps of load on the other outlet. Bottom line is, it is not worth it but, technically legal.

If you wish to incorporate a transfer switch into the mix, that would be possible but expensive.

Now, all of this said, is it possible? Yes, if you don't comply with the codes, don't get a permit and disclose that you did this modification to the building without obtaining permits on the disclosure form when you sell the house. All of this said, if YOU KNOW what you are doing, perform the work in a mechanically sound manner and do not supply more than one piece of equipment at a time then yes, you can make it work safely.

Lots of ifs in this and again, not to keep harping on this, there are significant hazards due to possible shock and fire. The last thing to bring up is your homeowner's insurance. If you perform this work without permits and inspections, and it causes a fire, the insurance company does not have to cover the claim. Yes, I have seen this and it is UGLY! Especially if you are not using one of the big three insurance companies (State Farm, Allstate and Farmers). People have lost everything, including family members. I have seen way too much of this and it is not worth making it work, the risks are too great.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Looks like I may be stuck in a hard spot, really dont want to delete dryer plug, definitely not into rigging it. Maybe its time to just jump in the 60 and head to the new micro-brewery that opened last week and ponder a bit.....

Anyone have or know by chance of any good 110/220 compressors, guess that could be a option

You have options that will work and safe just maybe not 100% code legal contact a licensed electrician to discuss your options not IH8mud.

 

[Vincenzo]

You have options that will work and safe just maybe not 100% code legal contact a licensed electrician to discuss your options not IH8mud.

I was planning on it, just wanted a bit of input/advice to see if its even possible and what would I be looking at spending wise.

 

[Azca]

You have options that will work and safe just maybe not 100% code legal contact a licensed electrician to discuss your options not IH8mud.

I really agree with Phil on this. Electrical work can legally be done by a homeowner but, there is so much that can go wrong, so much misinformation with so little understanding on a very complex and deceptively difficult subject, I highly discourage a homeowner doing anything more than changing out a light fixture or adding a dimmer.

 

[e9999]

I don't know anything about the NEC but it does make sense that if you add a possibility of circuit overload because of an plug added after the system was built, that could be a safety issue, presumably what the NEC is supposed to prevent. Which is why I thought that making the laundry room outlet blind would help and possibly solve the issue.

But that makes me wonder about a related issue. A typical 120V subpanel may have about 20 or 25 breakers, I think. All 15 or 20A probably. But your typical house will have far more outlets than that. Does that mean that more than one 15A outlet can be put on a circuit with a single 15 or 20A breaker? If you have 4 on a circuit, you could theoretically draw 60A on a circuit sized for a 20A breaker then, and are entirely depending on the breaker to trip? Is that how it is?

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

It is not that you are "splitting" the branch circuit, it is what loads are permitted on the circuits. As you have a dryer outlet, intended for a 5kw dryer, which will draw approximately 21 amperes at 240 volts. The dryer has a motor so that changed the way you calculate the load per NEC 422.10(G) which will send you to article 430 for motors. That article, per 430.53 now must take the actual motor in the dryer at 125% plus 100% of the other loads which will bump that 21 ampere load up a little. Can't tell you how much because I would have to see how large the motor actually is. None the less, we are now looking at a load of at least 22 amperes now.

Normally you would size per NEC 210 but, 210.2 basically states you must comply with table 210.2 which lists other articles which amend or supplement the article. So now article 430, per article 422 drives where we are going. So, you technically would be allowed to add another outlet on the circuit provided it does not draw more than 6.4 amps of continuous load or 8 amps of non-continuous load provided.... the circuit breaker was listed to operate at 100 % of its capacity, which it will not be per NEC 210.19(A) the exception so, we are back to a 30 amp circuit, @ 80% of its rating, being allowed to feed a maximum of a 24 ampere load. Now we are limited to adding no more than 2 amps of load on the other outlet. Bottom line is, it is not worth it but, technically legal.

If you wish to incorporate a transfer switch into the mix, that would be possible but expensive.

Now, all of this said, is it possible? Yes, if you don't comply with the codes, don't get a permit and disclose that you did this modification to the building without obtaining permits on the disclosure form when you sell the house. All of this said, if YOU KNOW what you are doing, perform the work in a mechanically sound manner and do not supply more than one piece of equipment at a time then yes, you can make it work safely.

Lots of ifs in this and again, not to keep harping on this, there are significant hazards due to possible shock and fire. The last thing to bring up is your homeowner's insurance. If you perform this work without permits and inspections, and it causes a fire, the insurance company does not have to cover the claim. Yes, I have seen this and it is UGLY! Especially if you are not using one of the big three insurance companies (State Farm, Allstate and Farmers). People have lost everything, including family members. I have seen way too much of this and it is not worth making it work, the risks are too great.

Sorry for the long post!

This is gold. I agree adding load is bad, looking back my switch was described downstream, not upstream of the initial box, and I failed to note the need and cost for a 3 position switch.

 

[rkymtnflyfisher]

WOW.


I’m glad that I’m not working on that receptacle. If rather be fighting a 5 bank of 1.5mW gensets not syncing on the medium voltage buss than deal with that crap.