2002 LX470 pre-purchase - Deleted AHC for StrutMaster Suspension (1 Viewer)

[Argonaut54]

Hey all,
looking to purchase 2002 470 with 170k miles for a good price. Most looks good throughout with a few exceptions, the timing belt needs replacement soon, there's rust build up with little to no flaking (at this low mileage I don't mind it) and the AHC has been deleted and replaced with StrutMaster Suspension.
Sounds good, ya?
However I noticed seepage/ leaking above the front axel - I was told this was due to excess hydraulic fluid from AHC still leaving the lines. I understand it's expensive to remove all AHC components, but need to ask, is it common to see leaking continue after AHC delete?
Thanks all.

 

[GTV]

Strutmaster is garbage. Plan on replacing all of it. It sounds like they really didn’t try real hard on that one if it still is leaking hydraulic fluid, it would make me cautious about the rest of the vehicle.

 

[Argonaut54]

Strutmaster is garbage. Plan on replacing all of it. It sounds like they really didn’t try real hard on that one if it still is leaking hydraulic fluid, it would make me cautious about the rest of the vehicle.

Appreciate the feedback - this will be my DD, short commutes with occasional overlanding, so I suspect decent usage RE strutmaster. Is the fluid leaking typical of folks who don't want to take the whole system out? Is removing it something I could do myself later?

 

[GTV]

Appreciate the feedback - this will be my DD, short commutes with occasional overlanding, so I suspect decent usage RE strutmaster. Is the fluid leaking typical of folks who don't want to take the whole system out? Is removing it something I could do myself later?

The kit is garbage because it retains the original AHC torsion bars that can only support about half of the vehicle weight. You need LC bars at a minimum, it is unsafe otherwise. Do a search and you’ll find a lot more info. Strutmaster is the cheap and easy AHC “fix” so I’m not surprised to hear of a lazy installation where nothing else was removed. If all the other AHC components are present and not rusty you could find some good used AHC “shocks” on the classifieds here and easily get it back up and running.

 

[jLB]

The Strutmasters kit is something that you would install in order to sell a vehicle with AHC issues (that you didn’t want to repair). It is a cheap half-assed solution, that you don’t install to drive. You might be able to get by, if you replace the factory LX (AHC) torsion bars, with LC (non-AHC) torsion bars. If it were mine, I’d be looking for some take-off LC coils & torsion bars, paired with some new LC OE shocks.

Removing the rest of the AHC components is time consuming, and a pain, but should be doable.

Rust would bother me more than mileage. Why would a Dallas vehicle be rusty? It would make me wonder where the vehicle has spent the rest of its life…

 

[Argonaut54]

The Strutmasters kit is something that you would install in order to sell a vehicle with AHC issues (that you didn’t want to repair). It is a cheap half-assed solution, that you don’t install to drive. You might be able to get by, if you replace the factory LX (AHC) torsion bars, with LC (non-AHC) torsion bars. If it were mine, I’d be looking for some take-off LC coils & torsion bars, paired with some new LC OE shocks.

Removing the rest of the AHC components is time consuming, and a pain, but should be doable.

Rust would bother me more that mileage. Why would a Dallas vehicle be rusty? It would make me wonder where the vehicle has spent the rest of its life…

Spent life in Florida, is answer to rust.. and I was unaware of the factory torsion bars vs the LC torsion bars. Thanks for clarification! I didn't know the strutmaster where the half-ass solution. At that point I'd rather have the AHC, if it were functional (again for DD mainly).

Gotta ask though, being a noob, why is rust more worrying than mileage?

 

[GTV]

Gotta ask though, being a noob, why is rust more worrying than mileage?

Because these are Toyotas.

 

[jLB]

Gotta ask though, being a noob, why is rust more worrying than mileage?

If properly maintained, mileage (within reason) isn’t a big deal on these vehicles. I’ve got (3) 100 series in the driveway, and I have no fear/doubts about hopping into the 99 LX, with 250+k miles and driving cross country. It drives slightly differently from the more modern 06 LX (~100k mi), but is just as enjoyable and reliable.

Rust tends to make every task a bit more of a pain, with broken fasteners, drills, and broken bolt extractors, it takes some of the “fun” out of working on the vehicle.

 

[97 AZ LC]

Strutmasters may be fine for you. It depends on how you're going to use the truck. It's a fine company that literally created the market for suspension conversions. But it's basically an on-road / light dirt kind of a kit - which is fine for lots of people. It's not crap - it's just not engineered for how most people on this forum use their trucks. The anti-Strutmasters vitriol on this forum is almost bazaar. Most people are just repeating what they read on this forum. If Strutmasters could sue this forum for defamation they'd have a hell of a case. Their kit properly installed (and it sometimes isn't) has a purpose and a market niche.

 

[jLB]

The Strutmasters kit is something that you would install in order to sell a vehicle with AHC issues (that you didn’t want to repair). It is a cheap half-assed solution, that you don’t install to drive.

The anti-Strutmasters vitriol on this forum is almost bazaar. Most people are just repeating what they read on this forum. If Strutmasters could sue this forum for defamation they'd have a hell of a case.

To you, this qualifies as “defamation”?

Would it not be used on a vehicle with a “broken” AHC system?

Is the kit not inexpensive/cheap?

Does it include torsion bars? (OK, so maybe it’s 3/4 of a kit. 1/4-assed?)

Does anyone install the Strutmasters kit for its wonderful ride or handling? (Beyond compared to riding on bump stops)

I wonder why Toyota has AHC, and non-AHC torsion bars, if it’s all the same, and “good enough”?

Do I own a vehicle with the Strutmasters kit? No.

Have I driven a 100 series with the Strutmasters kit? Yes, a friend had a kit installed, and was very unhappy with it on his LX DD. I gave him some takeoff torsion bars, and it drove/handled much better with the LC torsion bars.

Would I buy a 100 series with the Strutmasters kit already installed? Probably, but I have a pile of 100 series suspension parts sitting in a corner of my garage.

 

[GTV]

Strutmasters may be fine for you. It depends on how you're going to use the truck. It's a fine company that literally created the market for suspension conversions. But it's basically an on-road / light dirt kind of a kit - which is fine for lots of people. It's not crap - it's just not engineered for how most people on this forum use their trucks. The anti-Strutmasters vitriol on this forum is almost bazaar. Most people are just repeating what they read on this forum. If Strutmasters could sue this forum for defamation they'd have a hell of a case. Their kit properly installed (and it sometimes isn't) has a purpose and a market niche.

Roughly half of the weight is supported by the hydraulic system and the other half is supported by the torsion bars and coils. The small diameter AHC torsion bars cannot support the weight of the vehicle on their own, that’s why every picture of a Strutmasters converted 100 has its nose in the dirt. No amount of torsion bar cranking or reindexing is going to correct that.

I own an AHC 100 and have a good understanding of how they work. Much better I’d say than the “engineers” at Strutmaster who market this kit as a replacement for the “air suspension”

2007 Lexus LX 470 Air Suspension Conversion Kits | Struts | Suspension

Strutmasters is the world leader in suspension products for your 2007 Lexus LX 470. We created the original air suspension conversion kit and now offer many other active suspension conversion kits (hydraulic, electronic, etc). With our EZ Strut replacement struts, control arms, sway bars, lift...

www.strutmasters.com

 

[Argonaut54]

Roughly half of the weight is supported by the hydraulic system and the other half is supported by the torsion bars and coils. The small diameter AHC torsion bars cannot support the weight of the vehicle on their own, that’s why every picture of a Strutmasters converted 100 has its nose in the dirt. No amount of torsion bar cranking or reindexing is going to correct that.

I own an AHC 100 and have a good understanding of how they work. Much better I’d say than the “engineers” at Strutmaster who market this kit as a replacement for the “air suspension”

2007 Lexus LX 470 Air Suspension Conversion Kits | Struts | Suspension

Strutmasters is the world leader in suspension products for your 2007 Lexus LX 470. We created the original air suspension conversion kit and now offer many other active suspension conversion kits (hydraulic, electronic, etc). With our EZ Strut replacement struts, control arms, sway bars, lift...

www.strutmasters.com

Thanks.. to all here. The knowledge is truly incredible. Threads like this, and others, are educating me everyday and keeping me from making poor decisions.

 

[97 AZ LC]

Roughly half of the weight is supported by the hydraulic system and the other half is supported by the torsion bars and coils. The small diameter AHC torsion bars cannot support the weight of the vehicle on their own, that’s why every picture of a Strutmasters converted 100 has its nose in the dirt. No amount of torsion bar cranking or reindexing is going to correct that.

You've nailed the oft-repeated party line here but it just isn't true. The LX torsion bars are about 10 percent smaller diameter than the LC's and they can easily be reindexed and adjusted to handle the change in the shocks/rams. There's too many people driving around on the Strutmasters kit as happy as a lark to say that the design is fatally flawed. When you see the nose in the dirt you know the installer has screwed up - usually by just failing to following the installation instructions. Strutmasters kits are typically installed by general automotive shops, not off road shops, for customers who just know they want the AHC gone so they can drive down the street. Sometimes the installation gets botched. But Strutmasters is a fine and successful company selling a kit that is just fine for what it purports to be. Don't ad weight, don't crawl over rocks. The hatchet job that this forum has done on Strutmasters seems criminal to me. It's a sad example of what the internet does all too often.

 

[97 AZ LC]

To you, this qualifies as “defamation”?

Would it not be used on a vehicle with a “broken” AHC system?

Is the kit not inexpensive/cheap?

Does it include torsion bars? (OK, so maybe it’s 3/4 of a kit. 1/4-assed?)

Does anyone install the Strutmasters kit for its wonderful ride or handling? (Beyond compared to riding on bump stops)

I wonder why Toyota has AHC, and non-AHC torsion bars, if it’s all the same, and “good enough”?

Do I own a vehicle with the Strutmasters kit? No.

Have I driven a 100 series with the Strutmasters kit? Yes, a friend had a kit installed, and was very unhappy with it on his LX DD. I gave him some takeoff torsion bars, and it drove/handled much better with the LC torsion bars.

Would I buy a 100 series with the Strutmasters kit already installed? Probably, but I have a pile of 100 series suspension parts sitting in a corner of my garage.

The Strutmasters kit is not cheap or inexpensive. It's about $750 shipped and taxed for 4 shocks and rear springs. You can get four OE Genuine shocks and OME rear springs for about half of that. But we all know that price is a less than perfect proxy for quality.

One of the great features of torsion bars is that they can be adjusted. The LX bars are slightly smaller in diameter than the LC - but they can be adjusted (re-indexed). Strutmasters explains how to do this at the 6:00 mark of the installation video linked below. Unfortunately this step is sometimes missed by a general repair shop that barely knows what a torsion bar is. It results in problems and this seems to be the foundation for the hatchet job that this forum has done on the company. The kit is not for hard core off roaders and anyone adding much weight. Slandering the company for that really isn't fair or justified. The kit is what it is and plenty of people are fine with it.

 

[jLB]

The Strutmasters kit is not cheap or inexpensive. It's about $750 shipped and taxed for 4 shocks and rear springs. You can get four OE Genuine shocks and OME rear springs for about half of that. But we all know that price is a less than perfect proxy for quality.

Compared to some of the other options that are out there for these vehicles, or (dealer quotes for) repairing AHC, the Strutmasters kit is cheap or inexpensive, otherwise why would they exist. In my opinion, the reason that they do not include the torsion bars, is to keep costs down and profits up.

One of the great features of torsion bars is that they can be adjusted. The LX bars are slightly smaller in diameter than the LC - but they can be adjusted (re-indexed).

I think this forum generally gives torsion bars a "bad rap", but yes, the preload on the torsion bars can be changed, by re-indexing, or turning a bolt, which does adjust resting height of the suspension, but it is my understanding that does nothing to change the actual spring rate of the torsion bar. It is my understanding that a torsion bar's effective spring rate is a function of its diameter, length (fixed in this instance), and lever/LCA length (also fixed).

It appears that you and I differ on our definition of "slightly".

100 series torsion bars:

AHC ~25.5mm​

Non-AHC ~28.87mm (+3.37mm or +13.2%)​

OME ~30.5 (+1.63mm or +5.6%)​

TD/IM/SAW/etc ~32mm (+1.5mm or +4.9%)​

I do wish I was getting "slightly" better interest on my CDs

Strutmasters explains how to do this at the 6:00 mark of the installation video linked below. Unfortunately this step is sometimes missed by a general repair shop that barely knows what a torsion bar is. It results in problems and this seems to be the foundation for the hatchet job that this forum has done on the company. The kit is not for hard core off roaders and anyone adding much weight.

Incorrect installation may well be a problem with their kit. I understand that it is not intended for hard core off roaders, or anyone adding a lot of weight. In my opinion, Strutmasters niche, is making vehicles with broken pneumatic or hydro-pneumatic suspensions drivable again, for less than the OE repair cost (at the dealer).

I wonder where I may have gotten that impression?

Slandering the company for that really isn't fair or justified. The kit is what it is and plenty of people are fine with it.

Technically, I believe "slander" is verbal, since it's been in writing, wouldn't that be "libel"? I don't believe that I have defamed them at all, I've offered fact, and my opinions on one product that they offer, based on my experience with that product, I haven't questioned their integrity, intelligence, said anything about their mother nor tried to present any falsehood as fact. If I wasn't real clear on what was fact vs. what was my opinion, I'm sorry.

I'll assume from your passionate defense of Strutmasters, that you do have one of their kits, installed on a 100 series?

You're entitled to your opinion that the Strutmasters kit is a "quality product", just as I am entitled to my opinion that it is an ill advised band-aid that doesn't fully address the issues when removing AHC from a 100 series.

 

[JustEthan]

I own an LX that has lived its whole life in the Northeast and has moderate rust underneath (some here might consider it horrific). Structurally fine, but when I bought it there were some less than lovely spots that needed treatment. The brake and AC lines had been replaced and are in almost new condition, but the AHC lines were on borrowed time. I first replaced the AHC with an OME setup that is regularly recommended here. I realized not too long after installation that it was more aggressive than I wanted and that while I drive in the snow and mountains regularly, I am rarely off road. A friend had a strutmasters kit and OEM LC torsion bars that he was not going to use. I have been happy with that swap. My LX rides as nicely as it would on an OEM Toyota suspension and has proven both comfortable and reliable. Should I decide to build out the truck, I am also sure I'd want to swap back to the heavier OME setup.

My points are these:
1) Why did they swap to Strutmasters? Likely because of an AHC issue. If it was rusty lines, you should also check the AC and brake lines.
2) The Strutmasters kit, if properly installed, is perfectly acceptable, though perhaps not up to this forums normal standards. It's not junk that will break immediately. I would however suggest that swapping out the torsion bars is a good idea, though you can likely get away without doing so.
3) Removing AHC completely is a pain in the ass but can be done if you'd like.

100 series torsion bars (or aftermarket) are not that expensive and are not that hard to install. AHC components that were not fully removed are not a problem, but may be unappealing to buyers. Rust in Texas or Florida is always confusing. Timing belt servicing can be pricey. Use all of those things to negotiate a price you're comfortable paying and the truck will give you years of service.

 

[jLB]

I first replaced the AHC with an OME setup that is regularly recommended here. I realized not too long after installation that it was more aggressive than I wanted and that while I drive in the snow and mountains regularly, I am rarely off road.

I (along with many others on this forum) would’ve advised that while the OME springs and torsion bars are fine, OME shocks seem extraordinarily harsh on a mostly stock (IFS) 100 series, and would’ve suggested a number of shock alternatives, ranging from less expensive than OME (OEM) to silly expensive racing shocks, although I will admit that there are a few around here that think the OME shocks are “the cat’s meow”. In my opinion, they must have a much heavier vehicle, a higher tolerance for abuse, or haven’t tried some of the other options.

A friend had a strutmasters kit and OEM LC torsion bars that he was not going to use. I have been happy with that swap. My LX rides as nicely as it would on an OEM Toyota suspension and has proven both comfortable and reliable.

If stock non-AHC torsion bars are added to the Strutmasters kit, it is serviceable, as I mentioned in post #5 in this thread, and as I’ve helped a friend do.

You might be able to get by, if you replace the factory LX (AHC) torsion bars, with LC (non-AHC) torsion bars.

Should I decide to build out the truck, I am also sure I'd want to swap back to the heavier OME setup.

Maybe, not all of it

 

[JustEthan]

Maybe, not all of it

You are probably right! I have considered a handful of suspension setups and shock combinations. If I build something up, I am likely to try something beyond just OME. But it certainly seems reasonable as a starting point if I slap on some bumpers and armor.

My main point is that while the strutmaster setup might not be ideal, it's likely fine, especially with upgraded T-bars. If Argonaut54 is going to go heavy on a build, those T-bars, shocks, and springs will need to be addressed anyway.

 

[jLB]

My main point is that while the strutmaster setup might not be ideal, it's likely fine, especially with upgraded T-bars. If Argonaut54 is going to go heavy on a build, those T-bars, shocks, and springs will need to be addressed anyway.

this will be my DD, short commutes with occasional overlanding, so I suspect decent usage RE strutmaster.

From his comments, I don’t think an immediate heavy build was his intention. My argument is/was a pair of take-off torsion bars should make it ride/handle reasonably close to a stock LC, but as the Strutmasters kit is sold (no torsion bars) it doesn’t feel/handle like a stock 100 series should, or at least the one example that I drove felt extremely soft, but slightly out of control on some street situations.

Would I buy a 100 series with the Strutmasters kit already installed? Probably, but I have a pile of 100 series suspension parts sitting in a corner of my garage.

 

[GTV]

100 series torsion bars:

AHC ~25.5mm​

Non-AHC ~28.87mm (+3.67mm or +14%)​

This is a good data point. It's important to know that just because a torsion spring is only 14% larger diameter doesn't mean that it's 14% stiffer, it goes up exponentially.

Some quick maths (28.87^4/25.5^4) tells us that the non AHC bars are 64.3% stiffer.