Hey all - I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with putting a barrel intercooler (eg one from PWR) on their 12H-T. It seemed like it could be a good alternative, as you can pretty much tuck it anywhere and not worry about radiant heat from the engine.
12H-T Barrel Intercooler?
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Good idea but you may need to research if the barrel shape is a good shape for heat loss. A few owners have used barrel or cylinder shaped coolers for other things like transmissions and engine oil coolers.
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I hear that.. The one I had in mind is an air/water intercooler..any ideas?
Sent from the aether.
Sent from the aether.
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=7a8f08f1fcd3ad8506544960bd77c8db
I've had good luck with this company's silicone parts and t-clamps and aluminum/stainless intake tubing. But i haven't tried an intercooler from them... Just throwing options out there.
Dan
I've had good luck with this company's silicone parts and t-clamps and aluminum/stainless intake tubing. But i haven't tried an intercooler from them... Just throwing options out there.
Dan
How much room is there between the valve cover and the hood? The cylindrical barrel intercooler doesn't seem like it would fit as well something with a 3" x 12" x 12" core, which would be the minimum size I would use.
The most common mistake I see when it comes to air to water intercoolers (AWICs) is people using intercoolers that are way too small. They seem to think AWICs defy physics allowing the use of wee baby size intercoolers. That is not the case.
A 12H-T is a relatively low RPM and low boost setup. So your intercooler doesn't need to be huge, but you don't want to make it any smaller than you would an air-to-air setup. The added heat exchanger, pump, hoses, and wiring do add quite a bit of complexity and COST by the time you're done.
For an on-road/highway DD rig, a good size front mounted air-to-air intercooler is more simple and going to be better unless you jam a real good size AWIC under the hood.
For a slow offroad rig, I like the simplicity of no intercooler. If you want more low end torque, then get a variable geometry turbo. If find your EGTs are spiking higher than you'd like, then add water injection. If you find yourself running out of water too often, then add an AWIC.
If you want to put an AWIC on because they're cool (I did on my last car), then don't make the mistake of undersizing it.
The most common mistake I see when it comes to air to water intercoolers (AWICs) is people using intercoolers that are way too small. They seem to think AWICs defy physics allowing the use of wee baby size intercoolers. That is not the case.
A 12H-T is a relatively low RPM and low boost setup. So your intercooler doesn't need to be huge, but you don't want to make it any smaller than you would an air-to-air setup. The added heat exchanger, pump, hoses, and wiring do add quite a bit of complexity and COST by the time you're done.
For an on-road/highway DD rig, a good size front mounted air-to-air intercooler is more simple and going to be better unless you jam a real good size AWIC under the hood.
For a slow offroad rig, I like the simplicity of no intercooler. If you want more low end torque, then get a variable geometry turbo. If find your EGTs are spiking higher than you'd like, then add water injection. If you find yourself running out of water too often, then add an AWIC.
If you want to put an AWIC on because they're cool (I did on my last car), then don't make the mistake of undersizing it.
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I've got one like this on my 6.5td. The water coolers aren't up to snuff though, so the coolant overheats in the worst case, which is towing in the mountains. That implies that the intercooler itself is able to pull heat out of the intake stream. 
What I need to do is get a little car radiator and mount it up under the truck somewhere. It's on my todo list.
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...d=219&osCsid=7a8f08f1fcd3ad8506544960bd77c8db
What I need to do is get a little car radiator and mount it up under the truck somewhere. It's on my todo list.
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...d=219&osCsid=7a8f08f1fcd3ad8506544960bd77c8db
^^^Evidence to illustrate my point.
The intercooler you linked is silly small. Maybe 1/3 the size of an intercooler for a 12H-T. You have it on a 6.5TD? If its overheating then your heat exchanger is hilariously undersized as well.
"Not up to snuff" No. The silicone intakes stuff is cheap (simple manufacturing and the welding isn't pretty) and their HP ratings are a joke, but their stuff will do the job if you size things correctly. You made an AWIC setup for a 1.6L diesel and then put it on a 6.5TD.
If the coolant getting much above ambient temp, then you have a pump or heat exchanger issue. If the coolant is 'overheating' then you must have both a pump flow AND heat exchanger size issue. The fact that the coolant is overheating doesn't mean the intercooler is doing a good job cooling the intake charge. It means the heat exchanger up front is too small to keep up. An intercooler that small on a 6.5TD isn't going to cool every well even if the water was kept at 33F.
For a 6.5TD you're gonna want something like this:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...d=222&osCsid=7a8f08f1fcd3ad8506544960bd77c8db
The intercooler you linked is silly small. Maybe 1/3 the size of an intercooler for a 12H-T. You have it on a 6.5TD? If its overheating then your heat exchanger is hilariously undersized as well.
"Not up to snuff" No. The silicone intakes stuff is cheap (simple manufacturing and the welding isn't pretty) and their HP ratings are a joke, but their stuff will do the job if you size things correctly. You made an AWIC setup for a 1.6L diesel and then put it on a 6.5TD.
If the coolant getting much above ambient temp, then you have a pump or heat exchanger issue. If the coolant is 'overheating' then you must have both a pump flow AND heat exchanger size issue. The fact that the coolant is overheating doesn't mean the intercooler is doing a good job cooling the intake charge. It means the heat exchanger up front is too small to keep up. An intercooler that small on a 6.5TD isn't going to cool every well even if the water was kept at 33F.
For a 6.5TD you're gonna want something like this:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...d=222&osCsid=7a8f08f1fcd3ad8506544960bd77c8db
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Do a search for any high performance diesel shop that gets 1000+hp and post a link up of an advertised AWIC they recommend. You can't cus AWICs suck unless there is physically no other way to fit a cooler, or you only plan on being under boost for less than 10 seconds as in drag racing. Saying your system works because it boils over is like saying if you put your hand on your intake pipe and got burned that you can remove heat and become an effective intercooler as well.
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I installed an air/water intercooler system to my LJ78, as there was no room for an air/air system (while retaining the A/C system).
My air/water system works very well, but is more expensive, and involved to install than an air/air system. My advice is, if you have the choice, definitely stick with an air/air system. Fit the largest front mount you can practically fit.
Don't think that a well designed air/water system cannot work really well though.
I think the trick to making a good air/water intercooler is using the same sized front radiator that you'd use with an air/air system. The smaller core in the engine bay is incredibly effective at soaking up the heat, but you need to be able to dump it effectively too. My intercooler water temps usually sit just a few degrees above ambient. Highest I've seen after a prolonged climb in summer was about 40C. Temps stay low enough I haven't even bothered with an expansion tank. The system dropped my max EGT's (full throttle up hill) by 250F-300F!
More pics and info here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/745872-lj78-air-water-intercooler-working.html
My air/water system works very well, but is more expensive, and involved to install than an air/air system. My advice is, if you have the choice, definitely stick with an air/air system. Fit the largest front mount you can practically fit.
Don't think that a well designed air/water system cannot work really well though.
I think the trick to making a good air/water intercooler is using the same sized front radiator that you'd use with an air/air system. The smaller core in the engine bay is incredibly effective at soaking up the heat, but you need to be able to dump it effectively too. My intercooler water temps usually sit just a few degrees above ambient. Highest I've seen after a prolonged climb in summer was about 40C. Temps stay low enough I haven't even bothered with an expansion tank. The system dropped my max EGT's (full throttle up hill) by 250F-300F!
More pics and info here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/745872-lj78-air-water-intercooler-working.html
Hello
Here is a PWR 6x6 setup on a 12ht in a BJ73
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/600317-12ht-top-mount-intercooler-install.html
Here is a PWR 6x6 setup on a 12ht in a BJ73
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/600317-12ht-top-mount-intercooler-install.html
Wow, I cringed when I saw those first photos of of the big air-to-air baking on top of the engine with a baby size hood scoop. Is that a joke? By the time the engine reaches operating temp the intercooler is going to be completely heat soaked and that hood scoop isn't going to do anything unless hes doing 120MPH. I'm sure the PWR is a vast improvement over that interHEATER.
However, assuming 6x6 refers its core dimensions (6" DIA x 6" long) then it is only 170 cubic inches. Thats tiny.
GTS's setup above has a similarly sized intercooler, but its on a 2LT. Still small, but with a good pump and heat exchanger up front it does a fine job on a badass camper rig.
However, assuming 6x6 refers its core dimensions (6" DIA x 6" long) then it is only 170 cubic inches. Thats tiny.
GTS's setup above has a similarly sized intercooler, but its on a 2LT. Still small, but with a good pump and heat exchanger up front it does a fine job on a badass camper rig.
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Thinking out loud while on the topic:
If you run a good, well thought out AWIC system, would it make any sense to use this system to cool the turbo as well. Assuming you had a watercooled turbo. Or would the turbo add too much heat to the system and start defeating the object of intercooling. Would it also then be benifical to run the AWIC pump for a few moments after shutdown. Would you plumb the turbo in series or parallel to the IC.
Good idea, bad idea. it's up for discussion, and all in my mind.
G
If you run a good, well thought out AWIC system, would it make any sense to use this system to cool the turbo as well. Assuming you had a watercooled turbo. Or would the turbo add too much heat to the system and start defeating the object of intercooling. Would it also then be benifical to run the AWIC pump for a few moments after shutdown. Would you plumb the turbo in series or parallel to the IC.
Good idea, bad idea. it's up for discussion, and all in my mind.
G
No, no, no, no, no, no. Your post lacked any question marks, but I think 6 'no's should suffice. Water cooled turbos have a center cartidge that is water cooled to make sure the bearings don't overheat and reduce the burden on the oil system. It doesn't have anything to do with intercooling.
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As much as I dislike water air intercoolers, his question is not retarded. Running oil after shut off usually is more effective than pumping water, that being said the mere presence of water in the centre section of the turbo can cause thermo Siphoning circulating the water and aiding in cooling the bearings. Coking occurs at or above350F I believe so if you can keep the bearings below that you will have absolutely no coking at all. I guess running the water pump after shut off couldn't hurt and would be fairly easy to do, but it would increase the burden on your Awic radiator. It is a creative idea.
Except that coking is not an issue in water cooled turbos in any sort of reasonable application and modern synthetic oils are much less prone to coking, so even in oil cooled turbos coking is not an issue.
If you're the sort of person who pushes the turbo until glows and immediately shuts off the engine, then coking is going to be the least of your problems.
Overheating a water-cooled turbo is not an issue, therefore linking one to the AWIC system would yield no benefits and only increase your AWIC temp reducing the effect of the intercooler.
Back to AWICs on diesel cruisers please.
Lots of people think the idea sounds nifty, so they try it out with undersized intercoolers and obviously disappointed with the results. That's why AWICs have a bad rap. The intercooler should be the same size as an air-to-air and it is difficult to find space under the hood. One of the big reasons people want to try AWICs is because they don't want to cut up the front end to fit a front mounted air-to-air intercooler. However, an AWIC requires finding a place to fit an intercooler, pump, and front heat exchanger all of which is going to be a tight fit.
In any sort of steady state high load + low air flow situation, an AWIC is going to be superior to air-to-air. However, a large front mounted air-to-air has enough aluminum mass to act as a simple heatsink in low air flow for short periods.
If you're the sort of person who pushes the turbo until glows and immediately shuts off the engine, then coking is going to be the least of your problems.
Overheating a water-cooled turbo is not an issue, therefore linking one to the AWIC system would yield no benefits and only increase your AWIC temp reducing the effect of the intercooler.
Back to AWICs on diesel cruisers please.
Lots of people think the idea sounds nifty, so they try it out with undersized intercoolers and obviously disappointed with the results. That's why AWICs have a bad rap. The intercooler should be the same size as an air-to-air and it is difficult to find space under the hood. One of the big reasons people want to try AWICs is because they don't want to cut up the front end to fit a front mounted air-to-air intercooler. However, an AWIC requires finding a place to fit an intercooler, pump, and front heat exchanger all of which is going to be a tight fit.
In any sort of steady state high load + low air flow situation, an AWIC is going to be superior to air-to-air. However, a large front mounted air-to-air has enough aluminum mass to act as a simple heatsink in low air flow for short periods.
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Yeah I agree the turbo coking issue is pretty much non existentwith water cooled turbos that aren't intentionally abused. I did think it was a sort of out of the box idea.
At low speed a top mount intercooler will still out perform an air/water if you just put a fan on it. Lots of folks forget about fans. If you had an air water intercooler with no fan on it then it wouldn't work at low speeds either. Put a fan on both of them and both of them work. The air air happens to be more efficient pound for pound than an air water. This is true theoretically as well as practically.
As far as the low speed max power argument... Well honestly... How often do people do that? If Your using all your engines power in 1st gear then what the heck are you doing? On my top mount with no fan, on a 4inch core I might add, I got almost 70% efficient at speeds as low as 30mph. Now that was with no fan and a core that was far too thick. With a 3 inch core and a nice high amp spal fan I Think mid 70s would be very achievable at all speeds. Now that has all the same piping as these barrel air water jobs without sticking another huge radiator in front of your stock one. That is if anyone cares to size their air water rad properly it should be huge.
At low speed a top mount intercooler will still out perform an air/water if you just put a fan on it. Lots of folks forget about fans. If you had an air water intercooler with no fan on it then it wouldn't work at low speeds either. Put a fan on both of them and both of them work. The air air happens to be more efficient pound for pound than an air water. This is true theoretically as well as practically.
As far as the low speed max power argument... Well honestly... How often do people do that? If Your using all your engines power in 1st gear then what the heck are you doing? On my top mount with no fan, on a 4inch core I might add, I got almost 70% efficient at speeds as low as 30mph. Now that was with no fan and a core that was far too thick. With a 3 inch core and a nice high amp spal fan I Think mid 70s would be very achievable at all speeds. Now that has all the same piping as these barrel air water jobs without sticking another huge radiator in front of your stock one. That is if anyone cares to size their air water rad properly it should be huge.
Dankie Greg
Well, if the likes of Mr. Tesla, Faraday, Watt and one or two others were ever stopped from thinking, I would not have a Job and we probably would not have diesels.
Perhaps this is/was a hijack but:
If one is hell bent on AWIC and has also fitted a turbo which requires water-cooling AND the engine has no provision for this turbo water-cooling, THEN is there a case to consider both AWIC and turbo cooling at the same time using the same system?
I’ll start a new thread if this disturbs the thought patterns or creates enough interest.
Well, if the likes of Mr. Tesla, Faraday, Watt and one or two others were ever stopped from thinking, I would not have a Job and we probably would not have diesels.
Perhaps this is/was a hijack but:
If one is hell bent on AWIC and has also fitted a turbo which requires water-cooling AND the engine has no provision for this turbo water-cooling, THEN is there a case to consider both AWIC and turbo cooling at the same time using the same system?
I’ll start a new thread if this disturbs the thought patterns or creates enough interest.
Hey discussing this stuff is all good. Here is a much more heated thread on the same subject. My lame top mount is in there too. It is seriously too thick yet it still performed well. A thinner core with more surface area could do amazing things. Add a fan an I bet it could cure cancer. Funny thing is my intercooler cost me less than 200bucks and an afternoon to install and required absolutely no maintenance. I agree that rudolf and all those trailblazers were out of the box thinkers and were vindicated by their inventions. The problem is that air water isn't new and it is very much an accepted concept. The problem is that it is inefficient and has a very small niche where it can perform wonderfully. This would of course be drag racing. It is the only system that can draw intake charges far below ambient, for literally seconds.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/657123-1hdt-wta-intercooler-5.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/657123-1hdt-wta-intercooler-5.html
So now in your scenario the front mount air air intercooler has no fan at low speeds but your air water radiator does? Perhaps both of them utilize the same engine fan? Me thinks they do. I personally am not a fan of front mounts for their complexity, but they kill top mounts and air water set ups for efficiency. Plumbing, lag and reducing the stock radiators efficiency are it's drawbacks. For most diesel folks lag is not an issue and crafty fabricators can get creative with plumbing, although it is not an insignificant hurtle sometimes. Running an extra core on your rad is also often very doable. Now this is not for the average guy, but common, there is a reason why it is so commonly used. Because it's cheap and efficient. Well relatively cheap all things considered. You can run a huge core and it gets gobs of air flow all the time? What's not to like? Problem is I don't like them.
My low speed, max power argument was meant to be more of a reminder that you should think about your driving environment honestly. How often are you really going to take advantage of the AWIC?
The difference with AWIC vs the topmount(or any air-to-air) is that the water in the AWIC requires a ton of energy to increase the temp of the system and even if the water does increase by 10-20 even 50 degrees it is still cooling pretty well. The radiator fans coming on should cool your AWIC down. If they aren't coming on, then your engine isn't working and likely neither is your intercooler.
In conditions where your AWIC has heatsoaked to 20F above ambient, a topmount will have heatsoaked crazy high >150F. Some fans and/or water sprays can fix either situation.
If you can fit a 3"-4" thick, good size air-to-air, then that is going to be the simpler and cheaper solution. Fans and water sprayers can fix slow speed heatsoak issues.
I'm not a fan of top mounted air-to-air though. Even the best setup is going to require fans/water sprayers to fight off heat soak. You can make them work, but I'd prefer front mounted. And if you can fit a 4" top mount, then a good size AWIC should fit fine.
The difference with AWIC vs the topmount(or any air-to-air) is that the water in the AWIC requires a ton of energy to increase the temp of the system and even if the water does increase by 10-20 even 50 degrees it is still cooling pretty well. The radiator fans coming on should cool your AWIC down. If they aren't coming on, then your engine isn't working and likely neither is your intercooler.
In conditions where your AWIC has heatsoaked to 20F above ambient, a topmount will have heatsoaked crazy high >150F. Some fans and/or water sprays can fix either situation.
If you can fit a 3"-4" thick, good size air-to-air, then that is going to be the simpler and cheaper solution. Fans and water sprayers can fix slow speed heatsoak issues.
I'm not a fan of top mounted air-to-air though. Even the best setup is going to require fans/water sprayers to fight off heat soak. You can make them work, but I'd prefer front mounted. And if you can fit a 4" top mount, then a good size AWIC should fit fine.
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