10 years old, time for shocks?

[SUMOTOY]

SUMO,

The air lift sounds like a very good alternative for a lift. Has anybody done this to an 80? I just wonder if the ride wouldn't even be better than the new coil springs. Of course the installation would be easier too.

SS

Er, Me? About 6 months ago. I also posted up how to add the spacers if you really want to add lift.

Not sure about adding new springs, I didn't, nor did I add new shocks. I will, but I'm fat and happy with it the way it is.

I was always intrigued by those pump me up airs on the rovers. My main goal with the air springs, was to allow adjustability without having to raise my garage roof, allow fine tuning of the damping rates of my truck, tow without sagging, and even add a couple inches of ground clearance for offroading. Add the adjustable in cab monitor/touchpad, you don't even need to bring the bicycle pump (that's what I use now), and overall, use a low pressure system to accomplish this (35psi = 1000lb extra load capacity).

Downsides? Bag leaks = problem, maybe immediate. Reduced articulation of the axle (only if you have already disconnected the swaybars), a slightly firmer ride (albeit less stiff than bilstiens), installation modifications to the front.

I built my offroad machine already (874R turbo), and beat the crap out of it. I enjoy the basic goodness of the LC as stock. I pined after a 93/94 since they came out, because I think Toyota applied a good philosophy to a Gentleman's truck. Solid axle, front/rear diffs, VC with ABS, great suspension from the factory, and pretty decent offroad capability without having to do much but turn the locker knob and push the center lock button.

Those that want to cross streams with it, or climb the biggest rocks, or make it look cool, also have the benefit of all good things to build on. It's no wonder they still fetch good money.

SJ

 

[Walking Eagle]

For the kind of money it takes to really make a bad rig out of the 80, you could put 2 air lockers on a used pos wrangler, and out maneuver the 80 any day. And not care if you rolled it.

I just don't see an 80 as a machine for serious offroad. It's a quite capable offroader in stock trim, and with a bit of 'optimizing' you can get just about all the capability without losing it's on road goodness. Can you make a badass big dog? No doubt, but it sure has it's compromises. I say optimize what is there, and I sure wouldn't 'learn' to offroad with a LC, there's a lot cheaper ways to go about that task.

Again, only my .02

SJ

All depends on how you want to use it. Personally, I don't have the room (or money) for a car trailer to tow a wrangler (or my 40) out to Moab, and I'm not fitting my wife, my child, a 75lb and a 95lb Golden all in the back of a Wrangler. Oh, and I might want some clothes and a tent too. I know people pack lite and do it, like that guy that took a 40 series around the world, but I can't seem to pack that light.

With locked 80's under 10g's now, I think it's actually a pretty good price vs. off-road performance formula. With that Wrangler you have to add in a bunch of cash for broken parts to even drive it daily on the road .

But hey, my .02 is allowed to be different...

Heath

 

[Walking Eagle]

Downsides? Bag leaks = problem, maybe immediate. Reduced articulation of the axle (only if you have already disconnected the swaybars), a slightly firmer ride (albeit less stiff than bilstiens), installation modifications to the front.SJ

You can put a valve to tie the two bags together, and it shouldn't really hurt the articulation then. Just make sure you close the valve when you get back on the hwy, or it will make it sway more.

 

[Fochdog]

A quick follow up...

I talked with some folks at Bilstein. Their direct replacement shocks are tuned for each application ... Absolutely! As far as shocks for lifted trucks, these come with generic valving for each general type of vehicle e.g. full-size pick up, mid-size pick up , full-size SUV etc etc etc... with general estimates regarding amount of lift and tire/wheel size and mass. This is true at least for Rancho (Tenneco) also.

I know a little about shock absorber development ... and the performance of the Bilstein shocks on my truck are far from a generic ride package. The level of impact harshness, shake control and ride motions are not a result of a happenstance.

So, the Bilsteins on my truck where tuned for 80 series Land Cruisers albeit with OE springs, not the OME springs that I have right now.

 

[Grouseman]

Fochdog,

How do you like your Billies?

SS

 

[Fochdog]

Fochdog,

How do you like your Billies?

SS

I like them a lot. I can not compare them to OME shocks, but they are a good choice on and off road.

Try some searches ... I have posted several other times regarding Billies.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Terry,

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but it appears you think the airbags replace the coils. There are apps for this too, but informationally installing airbags WITHIN your factory coils would be perfect for what you mention wanting. For carrying heavy loads once in a while (your dirtbike), or towing, AirLift makes a great $90 pair that take a couple hours to install in your rear coils. Then you air them up, toss on the dirtbike and the truck is perfectly level and rides as though unladen. I have them on both 80s, and have had them on 2 previous vehicles for a total of about 220,000 miles of experience. They're tough, cheap, and get the job done with no fuss. I use them to tow a 6000lb boat around all summer to distant lakes.

DougM

 

[SUMOTOY]

A quick follow up...

I talked with some folks at Bilstein. Their direct replacement shocks are tuned for each application ... Absolutely! As far as shocks for lifted trucks, these come with generic valving for each general type of vehicle e.g. full-size pick up, mid-size pick up , full-size SUV etc etc etc... with general estimates regarding amount of lift and tire/wheel size and mass. This is true at least for Rancho (Tenneco) also.

I know a little about shock absorber development ... and the performance of the Bilstein shocks on my truck are far from a generic ride package. The level of impact harshness, shake control and ride motions are not a result of a happenstance.

So, the Bilsteins on my truck where tuned for 80 series Land Cruisers albeit with OE springs, not the OME springs that I have right now.

I don't buy that at all. I've used bilsteins in audis for a bunch of years. If you look at the cross references in them, there is NO way you come to the conclusion that each application is "tuned". There are cross references between vehicles 1000lbs apart in curb weight.

I also say, if that's true, doesn't changing the rake angle, specifically change the weight balance of the truck?

I'd certainly expect Bilstein to say that. I don't believe it for a second, but I'd expect them to say that. I'll find my Bilstein application catalog, I'm sure I can discover a cross app for the 80 that doesn't jive.

You might like them, I personally think the stock shocks are tuned to the applciation, and adding a set of airbags front and rear gives you more adjustability to your own 'style' or preference, than putting on the Bilsteins would. BTDT.

my .o2

SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

You can put a valve to tie the two bags together, and it shouldn't really hurt the articulation then. Just make sure you close the valve when you get back on the hwy, or it will make it sway more.

WE:
Physics would dictate that if you increase effective spring rate, you have reduced articulation. I have mine tied in pairs, and it doesn't make it sway more, and it doesn't help much in terms of articulation either. The valve itself is pretty small, so large changes in articulation won't be accomodated well (or fast) and I don't understand the sway statement. Again, if you have increased effective spring rate, you should have reduced sway. IIRC, this was mentioned on a towing thread a few months ago, which I personally attributed to bad trailer balance.

FYI, I regularly tow my tandem axle (5000lbs with car), and since I added the rear bags, I haven't used the load equalizers. Then again, I added front bags as well, but I can't see that affecting the rear so much.

HTH

SJ
'94 FZJ80 Supercharged and airbag inserts x 4

 

[SUMOTOY]

Terry,

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but it appears you think the airbags replace the coils. There are apps for this too, but informationally installing airbags WITHIN your factory coils would be perfect for what you mention wanting. For carrying heavy loads once in a while (your dirtbike), or towing, AirLift makes a great $90 pair that take a couple hours to install in your rear coils. Then you air them up, toss on the dirtbike and the truck is perfectly level and rides as though unladen. I have them on both 80s, and have had them on 2 previous vehicles for a total of about 220,000 miles of experience. They're tough, cheap, and get the job done with no fuss. I use them to tow a 6000lb boat around all summer to distant lakes.

DougM

Thanks Doug...
To be clear, my airbag installation on all 4 corners is the spring insert (not replacement) type. I tied them together 2 rears, 2 fronts, no other modifications to the suspension (did need to cut the front bump stops) or airbag install otherwise.

SJ

 

[terry.mc]

Terry,

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but it appears you think the airbags replace the coils. There are apps for this too, but informationally installing airbags WITHIN your factory coils would be perfect for what you mention wanting. For carrying heavy loads once in a while (your dirtbike), or towing, AirLift makes a great $90 pair that take a couple hours to install in your rear coils. Then you air them up, toss on the dirtbike and the truck is perfectly level and rides as though unladen. I have them on both 80s, and have had them on 2 previous vehicles for a total of about 220,000 miles of experience. They're tough, cheap, and get the job done with no fuss. I use them to tow a 6000lb boat around all summer to distant lakes.

DougM

Doug and SUMO,

I misunderstood in ways I'm still trying to understand.

I thought that the airbags fit *under* the coil like a donut with the shock in the middle and that you ended up with airbag coil and shock. I see now that it's a bag replacing the shock.

For offroad use I assume that using an airbag reduces the amount of articulation buy a bit? I don't do anything very tough and have lockers, so there is always 1 wheel on the ground EDIT--> I see above that it does decrease articulation...

Doug, do you do much offroad with yours and can you compare pre bags with post bags?


Thanks for the time and help guys...


T

 

[Walking Eagle]

WE:
Physics would dictate that if you increase effective spring rate, you have reduced articulation. I have mine tied in pairs, and it doesn't make it sway more, and it doesn't help much in terms of articulation either. The valve itself is pretty small, so large changes in articulation won't be accomodated well (or fast) and I don't understand the sway statement. Again, if you have increased effective spring rate, you should have reduced sway. IIRC, this was mentioned on a towing thread a few months ago, which I personally attributed to bad trailer balance.

When you tie the two bags togather it doesn't act the same as if you increased the spring rate on both sides. Some people will talk about forced articulation with air bags - I think of it more in terms of allowed articulation. As you go up a rock or ramp and the axle articulates, one tire goes up, the other one goes down. With air bags, one will get bigger one will get smaller, and neither is compressed - at least until they run out of room and finally start to compress. If you close the valve inbetween the two bags. Then they compress and give resistance just like any normal spring - and will effect articulation more.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Just to clarify, I am using the AirLift airbags on the rear. They go in the coils and are left deflated in normal use or wheeling, then inflated to generate as much as 1000lbs of lifting force. I say lifting force only to differentiate from a lift, which would imply they inflate and raise the truck. They are not designed to do that and at full inflation perhaps move the truck an incidental half inch or so.

I've wheeled a lot of 80s over the years without the airbags, and I've wheeled this one a fair amount with and without. I do not notice any articulation restrictions, but practical experience says there must be some. AirLift recommends a minimum pressure of 8psi or something be kept in them to prevent them being distorted and damaged if the spring is fully compressed. I ignore this and essentially drain them of all but perhaps a couple PSI when they're not needed and have had no issues in all the miles.

One offroad benefit they DO have is on trips where I've been heavily laden (another couple, gear and 4 mountain bikes hanging off the rear) and traversing some fairly difficult trail sections. In this situation, the rear does not sag and the truck behaves much like it does unladen. I don't worry about coming off a ledge and slamming the rear with these springs pressurized.

You might do a search on airlift or such here on the forum as myself and others have sung their praises. I find them to be an incredible product, and the price is ludicrously cheap given how much utility they provide. I inflate mine manually and they're set up so they're not connected and have individual inflation valves. The kit comes so you can do either setup Walking Eagle shows above.

DougM

 

[terry.mc]

You might do a search on airlift or such here on the forum as myself and others have sung their praises. I find them to be an incredible product, and the price is ludicrously cheap given how much utility they provide. I inflate mine manually and they're set up so they're not connected and have individual inflation valves. The kit comes so you can do either setup Walking Eagle shows above.

DougM

Thanks for the thoughts.

I think that this is what I need and what I'll order.

 

[SUMOTOY]

When you tie the two bags togather it doesn't act the same as if you increased the spring rate on both sides. Some people will talk about forced articulation with air bags - I think of it more in terms of allowed articulation. As you go up a rock or ramp and the axle articulates, one tire goes up, the other one goes down. With air bags, one will get bigger one will get smaller, and neither is compressed - at least until they run out of room and finally start to compress. If you close the valve inbetween the two bags. Then they compress and give resistance just like any normal spring - and will effect articulation more.

In theory you are right WE. In practice, I don't find this true. The bags are quite limited by the spring in terms of deformation. Secondly, and most important, it takes a while for air to bleed out of that small oriface, IOW, it's not immediate. Rock crawling it might work over time. If you try to compress the downhill spring with an airbag, the airbag will reduce that compression. Over time it will accept it, but it does reduce articulation until that happens. BTDT. 2 Stock springs with higher effective spring rate (caused by airbags) means reduced articulation. Is it significant? I don't know, I don't do a lot of rock crawling with my rig.

SJ

 

[Cruiser Jimmy]

Ignore all the suggestions to get aftermarket shocks. I don't know why I'm going to pos this for the umpteenth time, but here goes.

I am a former Product Planner for GM and Lexus/Toyota. Shock absorbers are carefully tuned to a vehicle's particular suspension geometry, spring rate, roll center, mass, center of gravity, etc. Buying aftermarket shocks, means you're getting generic settings that are absolutely, definitely NOT specifically tuned for your vehicle. No shock maker has even 1/100th the budget to do that.

People see the cool ads for Bilsteins, etc and replace their tired shocks and think the Bilsteins are the 'best ever'. I'm here to tell you we have done consumer testing and we could have put new shocks from Outer Mongolia on a person's worn out car and they'd rave. It's a 'change' so it's good. But they have no idea how good the vehicle COULD have handled again if they'd put new factory shock on them because they're victims of the Bilstein marketing campaign.

Take some good and sound advice. Call Cdan and order 4 factory LandCruiser shock absorbers. They're perfectly matched to your vehicle's every aspect. They're very high end shocks which you'll find when you take the old ones off and they still cycle smoothly. I think Tokico makes them - great stuff. Heck, the rear shocks even have a welded on integrated gravel guard. You'll spend about $100 for all four and they'll fit perfectly.

Rant off....

DougM

Doug,
Referencing your budget statement, It really does not take much to ride tune a vehicle, let alone to design and build a simple stock like the TLC's. As long as the ride company gets the ride feel and the damping force the engineer wants, it should not take any more than an engineers salary and 6 weeks to tune.
It is true that the aftermarket company (of which most are OEM suppliers to your referenced companies) don't have the D/F values, but one could buy a service part from a manufacture and get the targets and replicate it. It's the ride feel that is harder to get right.

But yeah know, after 250K on my 80, my shock valving is tired and I'm ready for some new shocks and springs, and bushings. Maybe not bumpers though.


BTW, Tokico was the Twintube shock supplier for 80's. TMC engineering is partical to Tokico on trucks and KYB on passenger cars.

 

[Walking Eagle]

As long as the ride company gets the ride feel and the damping force the engineer wants, it should not take any more than an engineers salary and 6 weeks to tune.

And engineer's salaries aren't nearly enough.

 

[chukarhiker]

So should I use the Airlifts alone (mine came today) or replace my Med. OMEs with Heavies at the same time? I tow a tent trailer with a Quad in the front which pushes 700 lbs on the ball (total weight is under 5000K but with the Quad on the deck most of the weight is forward).
Thanx, Jim

 

[Brentbba]

So should I use the Airlifts alone (mine came today) or replace my Med. OMEs with Heavies at the same time? I tow a tent trailer with a Quad in the front which pushes 700 lbs on the ball (total weight is under 5000K but with the Quad on the deck most of the weight is forward).
Thanx, Jim

That's a lot of tongue weight. Cancelled my scout trip for the weekend so I won't be able to see how the heavies are with and without the airbags fully inflated until late April.

With mediums I'd ABSOLUTELY put the airbags in with the weight you have. CDAN would chime in and tell you you are exceeding MFG recommended tongue weight of 500 lbs.

 

[Beowulf]

Cancelled my scout trip for the weekend ...

You're gonna have some disappointed boys. Too bad.

-B-