10 years old, time for shocks?

[Grouseman]

Bilstein probably spends obscene amount of moneys on advertising. Don't really know if their advertising budget is more or less than any other shock mfg. Wasn't really my concern when purchasing. I have read several threads here and decided to give them a try. No I haven't tried the OMU shocks or springs. But most here haven't tried Bilsteins shocks. So where does that leave us. Guessing which is better. I will tell you there is a pretty big differance in Bilsteins vs. OEM brand new shocks. I think if most here replaced their OEM shocks OEM again, and then put on Billys, there would definately tell a big differance. But hey I have only put 18K miles on my truck since June 2005. I'm new to the 80's.

Grouseman

 

[Nay]

Where do you get MAF springs ?

Man-a-Fre. I went back out to their site. The springs are just various combos of OME...nothing new here.

 

[Bruneti]

Nay, I have had similar thoughts about Slee making a "short" lift. Something with a similar spring rate to his 4" lift, only shorter (2-2.5") and using bilsteins as you suggested would get my attention. Especially after reading the threads about Tyler's positive reaction to his 4" lift and ride. I've looked at so many threads discussing leveling a vehicle on OME's with and without trim packers, or whether caster correction was necessary and what was needed to correct it. I know that I would be interested in a lift that was more resistant to sagging from weight adding mod's, and had minimal risk of needing caster correction. If this meant it was on the lower end of lift height (2") then so be it. The shock eye adapter and properly sized bilsteins could complete the package. Obviously some testing would need to be done, but the idea seems reasonably sound.

edit - I don't mean to come off negative towards OME, as they seem to have a well developed product. However, I thought that Tyler's review of the Slee 4" was very positive, and he indicated that the firmer spring seemed to improve handling over his previous J-springs. I have no intention of going to a 4" lift, so I started pondering this imaginary lift that addressed all my lift concerns. Sorry if I came off wrong, but after reading my post again I thought I'd try to fix it.

 

[PDoyle]

Curious to know how much work is involved in lifting from 2" to 4 or 5".
How much of the wiring has to be extended, transmission bolts, anything like that?

 

[LICruiser]

Shocks

You guys love to confuse the "less" tuned in LC guys like myself. I'm running heavies up front and mediums in the read with a winch mount ARB w/o a winch. Would changing over to the OEM shock really make that big of a deal?

 

[LX_TREME]

Talkin boud stiffer spring I've got on road JDM Espelir '5 inch lowering spring with 5 ways adjustable sport shocks

 

[PDoyle]

That's hot! How's the ride? You certainly don't drive over dirt with it!

Talkin boud stiffer spring I've got on road JDM Espelir '5 inch lowering spring with 5 ways adjustable sport shocks

 

[SUMOTOY]

Bilstein in Landcruiser

Ignore all the suggestions to get aftermarket shocks. I don't know why I'm going to pos this for the umpteenth time, but here goes.

I am a former Product Planner for GM and Lexus/Toyota. Shock absorbers are carefully tuned to a vehicle's particular suspension geometry, spring rate, roll center, mass, center of gravity, etc. Buying aftermarket shocks, means you're getting generic settings that are absolutely, definitely NOT specifically tuned for your vehicle. No shock maker has even 1/100th the budget to do that.

People see the cool ads for Bilsteins, etc and replace their tired shocks and think the Bilsteins are the 'best ever'. I'm here to tell you we have done consumer testing and we could have put new shocks from Outer Mongolia on a person's worn out car and they'd rave. It's a 'change' so it's good. But they have no idea how good the vehicle COULD have handled again if they'd put new factory shock on them because they're victims of the Bilstein marketing campaign.

Take some good and sound advice. Call Cdan and order 4 factory LandCruiser shock absorbers. They're perfectly matched to your vehicle's every aspect. They're very high end shocks which you'll find when you take the old ones off and they still cycle smoothly. I think Tokico makes them - great stuff. Heck, the rear shocks even have a welded on integrated gravel guard. You'll spend about $100 for all four and they'll fit perfectly.

Rant off....

DougM

Doug:
I agree with you completely on this thread. I do the Bilsteins quite regularly to the audis in my shop, and recently did the Bilstein "upgrade" to a 93 80. The customer likes it fine, I found it to be a bit stiff, and actually not a true bolt in application, because they massively change the rake angle (one of my pet peeves on aftermarket stuff) significantly. I actually ended up cutting down some bumpers for the rear to get it where it wasn't rear high.

The Bilsteins also lack the heat/rock shield found on the factory shocks. Bilsteins are also notorious for gettting really stiff in cold climes, a combination of compacted gas and high viscosity damping, it can get really bad.

Using the 93 as my guideline, I decided that when I do the shocks on my 94, I'll do stockers (mine are original BTW at 110k). After a lot of thought, I decided to see what air lifts front and rear would do to the ride quality before I went after shocks. Really glad I did, since air lifts stiffen up a stock shock somewhere short of the Bilsteins.

I did put Bilstiens in my old 4R, and found them to be a decent match to the MTR's, but I did snap the shaft on one while offroading.

Based on my 20year history with Bilstein, they make some great shocks and struts. But they aren't meant to last near as long as the stock hydraulic replacements, and the non german applications are fairly recent addition to their line. When they did the expanded apps, some got much more development than others (read: I liked the 4R app, I don't like the 80 app)

As a rule, I'd only change the 80 shock to Bilsteins if you have changed something to require it. Bilstien HD are faster reacting than the stock yota shocks, but remember your tire weight. If you go to larger unsprung weight, you don't need a faster shock at all.

If you are looking for a step in the right direction using the stock application, get the stock shock and order up a set of airlift airbags. If you really want to go stiff ride, put 35psi in the bags. Want to mellow it out, put 6psi (min) in them.

My .02 arbitraged thru the peso

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ Performance Tuning
Chicago IL
'94 FZJ80 with stock shocks and airlbags x 4

 

[PDoyle]

Scott where do you get air bags? Do you install them inside the current OEM coils? (Hope not to sound stupid here)

 

[SUMOTOY]

Following up a bit to this whole thread... A lot of guys compare the old worn out crap to the eurethane bushings, or new gas shocks. My first recommendation to anyone coming into my shop that 'thinks' they want anything more HD. Try putting in fresh factory bushings. Swaybar, control arms, sleeved bushings, I mean every single rubber piece you can find that the suspension has worked for the last 100k.

I'd say the customer satisfaction index is much higher with those that follow that recommendation, than those that go after all the HD goodies. It's easy to take a stock ride and go stiffer, it sucks to start pulling out expensive pieces trying to find a ride that really is just 'new stock'.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure Doug knows, ride quality and opinions of it, will vary infinitely. What I don't see in these threads during my searches, is a systematic approach to ride vs duty of the truck. IMO/E if the truck is used 90% of the time on the street or light duty offroad, then the stock components will target that need extremely well. If 90% of the time is on track/rocks, then go to town. I just like to remind folks, that more friends (er in your own home) and satisfaction comes from addressing the 90% than the 10%.

Some creative adaptation of the 10% rule on the 80 can include: Swaybar disconnects, Bump mount cutting, increasing approach and departure angles (like just put the spare in the back for a day), lockers (you don't need more wheel travel if one's on the ground and you can put traction to it), airbags, drivers ed (4 wheeling, ice track), and dedicated wheels/tires.

Oops, the rational side. I'm sorry.

Scott Justusson

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott where do you get air bags? Do you install them inside the current OEM coils? (Hope not to sound stupid here)

PD
Yes, the rears are from JCW (manufacturer Airlift company Lansing MI) and are the LC application. The fronts are not listed here in the states (not sure why, the Aussies have them listed). I ended up calling Airlift and giving them the dimensions of the spring, and they pointed me to a stock Ford Van application. I did need to modify the front bump stops (I notice a lot of lifted pics where they aren't, those pups really reduce travel), but it allows me to adjust rake angle with the front TJM installed.

Once the SC budget recovers, I really want that in cab airbag touchpad inflator/deflator...

SJ

 

[PDoyle]

SJ, seems like the bags are a little more costly then the traditional coil lift.
How much for the ft and rr?

 

[rolliges]

Super discussion. After previous extensive research I thought I'd go for OME 2" (mediums) and Bilsteins. NOW I'm thinking about OME stock (0.5") coils and OEM shocks or stock coils and shocks (Toyota, not Lexus).

Many years ago I installed stiffer rear coils, IPD swaybar, and Bilstiens to my Volvo. Way too stiff!

Great advice here!

 

[PDoyle]

I agree! Still, Like to look at something closer to a OEM 2" lift and OEM shocks tho...
Can't beat chatting with someone who has done it, and is open to sharing info. like this. Very Very valuable. Thanks much!

Super discussion. After previous extensive research I thought I'd go for OME 2" (mediums) and Bilsteins. NOW I'm thinking about OME stock (0.5") coils and OEM shocks or stock coils and shocks (Toyota, not Lexus).

Many years ago I installed stiffer rear coils, IPD swaybar, and Bilstiens to my Volvo. Way too stiff!

Great advice here!

 

[Nay]

Nay, I have had similar thoughts about Slee making a "short" lift. Something with a similar spring rate to his 4" lift, only shorter (2-2.5") and using bilsteins as you suggested would get my attention. Especially after reading the threads about Tyler's positive reaction to his 4" lift and ride. I've looked at so many threads discussing leveling a vehicle on OME's with and without trim packers, or whether caster correction was necessary and what was needed to correct it. I know that I would be interested in a lift that was more resistant to sagging from weight adding mod's, and had minimal risk of needing caster correction. If this meant it was on the lower end of lift height (2") then so be it. The shock eye adapter and properly sized bilsteins could complete the package. Obviously some testing would need to be done, but the idea seems reasonably sound.

edit - I don't mean to come off negative towards OME, as they seem to have a well developed product. However, I thought that Tyler's review of the Slee 4" was very positive, and he indicated that the firmer spring seemed to improve handling over his previous J-springs. I have no intention of going to a 4" lift, so I started pondering this imaginary lift that addressed all my lift concerns. Sorry if I came off wrong, but after reading my post again I thought I'd try to fix it.

I couldn't have said it better. Very, very marketable solution IMO, especially if the spaced down shock travel allows 35's (even with some minor cosmetic trimming like Tyler did).

OME deserves critique. Just because it is a kit, and it is made tough in Australia, doesn't mean that it is perfect. I know that I have a bit of road wander with OME because it will lean on the crown of the road, which compresses one side of the suspension, and this makes things want to move a bit on a solid axle platform. Plus those OME shocks don't allow 35's..but the space in the wheel well should (too much up travel, not enought down!)

Slee?

Nay

 

[SUMOTOY]

SJ, seems like the bags are a little more costly then the traditional coil lift.
How much for the ft and rr?

The rear app from JCW
1991 - 2000 ToyotaLand CruiserLocation: REARAdjustable Air SpringsEachZX159858N $76.99

I believe the front app was about the same IIRC.

If 2in of lift is the goal, I'm betting you can get it with a set of airbags and the stock springs. In fact, I put up a post on how to do this. Air lift sells 1in block spacers that you could insert above/below the air bags and raise the truck pretty easily.

Me, I've learned long ago that working with stock ride height usually yields the best of compromises. Even in my offroading days, I was probably 20-30% offroad, 70 on road.

The nice thing about the 80 is it already has some great offroad features from the factory, good wheel travel, full floaters, lockers available, and can easily accomodate approach angle modifications.

I personally think a lifted 80 looks really cool, and probably makes for a nifty rock crawler. I also *know* that the footprint of my sumotoy is so big, that I'd take my old 4Runner and do rings around this 80 in just about any head to head comparo, even with the IFS. I'd want nothing else towing me out of a jam than an 80 with lockers tho...

For the kind of money it takes to really make a bad rig out of the 80, you could put 2 air lockers on a used pos wrangler, and out maneuver the 80 any day. And not care if you rolled it.

I just don't see an 80 as a machine for serious offroad. It's a quite capable offroader in stock trim, and with a bit of 'optimizing' you can get just about all the capability without losing it's on road goodness. Can you make a badass big dog? No doubt, but it sure has it's compromises. I say optimize what is there, and I sure wouldn't 'learn' to offroad with a LC, there's a lot cheaper ways to go about that task.

Again, only my .02

SJ

 

[PDoyle]

Great idea...
So for about $400. for 4 airbags, and 4 new OEM shocks, a 2" lift can be done, well. Right? Should you use the same coils or get 4 new coils as well?
Also, I have a CJ7 to rool around in. The 80 is for winter driving and mall
running. But yes your right a 2" lift makes it look better then stock.

 

[terry.mc]

Great idea...
So for about $400. for 4 airbags, and 4 new OEM shocks, a 2" lift can be done, well. Right? Should you use the same coils or get 4 new coils as well?
Also, I have a CJ7 to rool around in. The 80 is for winter driving and mall
running. But yes your right a 2" lift makes it look better then stock.

I hope I'm reading that right too.

I regularly carry a ~260 LBS dirtbike on a hitch mounted carrier with the 80 and would love to have the ability to simply air up a bit more and go. 2" of lift would be nice, but not essential (I'm not even sure I can fit in my garage with 33's, bike rack and 2" of lift)

Is there a downside to using airbags rather than coils?

Thanks,

T

 

[PDoyle]

Bigger garage!!!

I hope I'm reading that right too.

I regularly carry a ~260 LBS dirtbike on a hitch mounted carrier with the 80 and would love to have the ability to simply air up a bit more and go. 2" of lift would be nice, but not essential (I'm not even sure I can fit in my garage with 33's, bike rack and 2" of lift)

Is there a downside to using airbags rather than coils?

Thanks,

T

 

[Grouseman]

SUMO,

The air lift sounds like a very good alternative for a lift. Has anybody done this to an 80? I just wonder if the ride wouldn't even be better than the new coil springs. Of course the installation would be easier too.

SS