HELP! Serious problems after head gasket job! (1 Viewer)

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mason

mason

Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Threads
54
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298
Location
New Mexico
Just bolted up everything, and it didn't run. Kept trying, and eventually it was able to stutter at a very slow idle. Couldn't get any more speed out of it. It got going just a little and was able to do a half-hearted rev, then I noticed the back half exhaust manifold glowing red!

What is going wrong? I did every step on the cams and timing gear by the book, and the distributor was put exactly as it was (about 3 degrees off, guessing) and the rotor was straight up to top dead center.

Help!

-Eddie
 
180 degrees off on the timing possibly. Confirm that the piston is at the top of the stroke, not bottom when the marks are aligned...It could be either if I understand what you are saying correctly...
 
sdbrassfield said:
180 degrees off on the timing possibly. Confirm that the piston is at the top of the stroke, not bottom when the marks are aligned...It could be either if I understand what you are saying correctly...
Click to expand...

psiton top dead center happens twice for one distributor rotation, so check the cam orientation..
 
Sorry, it was both exhaust pipes between the union with the manifolds and the Y that were glowing. My dad saw it and yelled to turn it off. I aligned the cams with both 1 dots facing eachother, made sure the timing gear was installed with the dot at the top, and the balancer was at 0 degrees, then the distributor went in as before with the rotor pointing straight up. That is right, isn't it?
 
Your timing could still be off 180 degrees. Make sure that when you align the marks for the crank gear, the 1 piston is TDC, not at the bottom of the stroke. The gear spins two revolutions for each full cycle...Pull the distributor cap, align rotor w/ #1 button on the cap, and check to see if the #1 piston is at/near TDC. Or get the #1 piston to TDC, and check to see how close the rotor is to the #1 button on the cap. This can tell you alot. If it is somewhat close and not out of phase 180 degrees, rotate the distributor so it is alot closer to being on time. Then try to crank.
 
Mason, if you have the cams align properly and the balancer at 0 degrees, make sure that the distributor rotor points to #1 wire on distributor cap, start and use a timing light to get it to 3btdc.
One of the things that overheats exhaust manifolds is late timing.
Good luck!
Let us know how it goes..

Ruben
 
Looks like your off by 180°. Fuel/air mixture is igniting when the exhaust valve is open.
Check the marks on the cams again. The marks you are looking for are stamped on the steel and not anywhere else. The distributor installation may also be at fault.
Take it apart and start again. I had to do it on a 900cc 4 cylinder Kawasaki engine when the cam marks were not clear and I was off 180°.

Good luck.
 
I'm going to double check, but I could swear I did things right. I'm going to pull off the valve cover, make sure the cams are aligned correctly (1 dots on inside, 2 dots on outside, all in a straight line), and that the #1 piston is at TDC, and the balancer is at 0, and then that the rotor is pointing straight at #1, which is straight up.

If that doesn't work, I'll let you know.
 
timing is off for sure. I can look in the morning at my book. But when you assembled the exhaust cam into the head(as the book says), did you rotate the engine 360 degrees to get back to Top dead Center on compression. If not then that is your problem. Next would be if the distributor drive gear is inserted right(look at book). Then if the chain is on right(so the dot on the gear is just before the vertical line, the dot will never line up right unless something is wrong). The Rotor should be close to the number one spark hole on the distributor. I have read your discription, but unless I look at the book, I can not tell where your problem is. Good luck,later Robbie
 
O.K., I'm worried about another thing. In my other thread I said when I put the head bolts back in, I dipped them in oil, when I should have just had a light coating on them, and before I threaded them in, I poured a little oil near the heads. Stupid move.

They torqued fine to 29 lbs, but on the first 90 degree turn, some were getting very hard to move, others weren't. A few were really hard, then eased up. That's when I got worried. Those didn't feel stripped, but definitely eased up. On the second 90 degree turn, some were a total bi&%h to move, others moved easier.

In my other thread, ScO- stated something about hydrolocking and cracking. Is it possible if these are blind holes (didn't think about that) the oil prevented me from tightening the head to the block and fuel/air is leaking between the cylinders? When I was trying to run it, my dad said he could hear air escaping from somewhere just before he noticed the pipes glowing.

What the hell have I done? I'm now worried about the head not being tight enough, or the block cracked. I hope it's just timing.

-Eddie
 
Listen very carefully to powderpig. he is THE MAN ;) when it comes to these engines. Let him look in the book and get back to you.
 
mason said:
O.K., I'm worried about another thing. In my other thread I said when I put the head bolts back in, I dipped them in oil, when I should have just had a light coating on them, and before I threaded them in, I poured a little oil near the heads. Stupid move.

They torqued fine to 29 lbs, but on the first 90 degree turn, some were getting very hard to move, others weren't. A few were really hard, then eased up. That's when I got worried. Those didn't feel stripped, but definitely eased up. On the second 90 degree turn, some were a total bi&%h to move, others moved easier.

In my other thread, ScO- stated something about hydrolocking and cracking. Is it possible if these are blind holes (didn't think about that) the oil prevented me from tightening the head to the block and fuel/air is leaking between the cylinders? When I was trying to run it, my dad said he could hear air escaping from somewhere just before he noticed the pipes glowing.

What the hell have I done? I'm now worried about the head not being tight enough, or the block cracked. I hope it's just timing.

-Eddie
Click to expand...
Do you think you filled the holes with oil before you put the bolts in? Where they threaded at all before you poured it in?
 
cpg said:
Do you think you filled the holes with oil before you put the bolts in? Where they threaded at all before you poured it in?
Click to expand...

They weren't threaded in. Just dropped into place. So I'm willing to bet some oil dropped into there. How much extra room is there at the bottom of the holes?

I know, stupid mistake, I just had to do something that wasn't in the book, not even thinking those were blind holes.

I can't take it apart today. My daughter's 16th birthday, and I'm not gonna spend a 4th straight day working on the Cruiser. Hopefully, we can narrow the possibilities today, so I can aim at it tomorrow.

-Eddie
 
The act of having a lot of oil on the bolts could create a miss reading of torque and if enough oil can create hydrolocking, not allowing proper torque to happen at all. Even oil can ooze out to contaminate the gasket and not allow it to seal. There is a little room at the bottom, like 1/4 inch(6-8 mm). I have not looked at the book yet, but will. Yep your daughters b-day is important and need to be looked after as well. Have a great day with the kid and try not to think about this. It will only take some more time and maybe more money to fix this. later Robbie
 
I finished looking at the book and re reading your posts. I did not see any mention of how you positioned the distributor drive gear. if you pointed the pin in the same hole as the gear, it is wrong, it should be in the slot to the left of the one at the top of the gear(look in book). The rotor should not be pointing straight up, it should be slightly to the left of the wiring connector. Real close to the number one cord attachment for the spark plug.
Be real sure the dot on the cam drive gear is just before the vertical line. If it is after the vertical line, the mechanical timeing will be off as well. The things I mentioned need to be right for the timing to be right. Hope it will present it self easly(the problem).
As for the excess oil on the bolts. I do not have a real easy answer for this. You could run the engine for a bit, get it real warm and allow it to cool. drain the coolant, then re torque the head. back off each bolt, one at a time. Torque the head to 29(per the book). then do the 90 degree stuff.
The best answer for this(my opinion), is to pull it all down again. Remove the head, Clean the bolts and holes. Inspect the surface of the block to see if you have hurt the block(if surface of the block is not even). If any material come with the bolts, or if the bolts do not come easly, you have hurt the threads and the bolts will not hold proper torque. If all is fine, clean out the holes with a thread chaser or tap or old bolt made to look like a thread chaser.
I usually clean the bolts, then oil them, blow with air, to get excess off. then set to one side until I am ready for them. If you do pull this apart you may need a new head gasket. Most every thing else you could use. Some time head gaskets can be re used, some time not depending if they stick on the head or block.
Good luck with this, later robbie
 
Really sorry to hear all your troubles matey, bet ya worried sick, I would be, but it will all come back together I am sure, and without to much heart ache.

One day I will be doing the same job as you, my rig has done 140k and dreading the day I have to do it, I done the head on my Toyota diesel surf, what a nightmare that was, but it started ok and is still going 20k later :)
 
I'll relieve your worry about the head bolts hydrolocking. When you look at how threads mesh, one face of the fastener and one thread of the bolt (or block) are mashed tightly together and the opposite sides are not. There is air space in there and indeed space for oil to squeeze out as you tighten. It's not like a piston where there's no way for the oil to force past. So if you properly got the original 29ft-lbs, then properly rotated the heads 90 degrees twice more you've properly tensioned the head down. I know what you're saying as to some bolts 'feeling like they're stripping' or similar. Can't explain it but there's no way the head stripped - the bolt would break first.

I'd recheck the timing gear mounting holes. As Rob pointed out before (and I included in the video - attributing this gem to him), the gear can in fact be mounted off due to the way it's secured. I'd also be sure to recheck that piston #1 is at TDC when everything's supposed to line up. My guess is also that you're 180 out of phase meaning the valve train and the bottom end are not properly in synch.

DougM
 
powderpig said:
As for the excess oil on the bolts. I do not have a real easy answer for this. You could run the engine for a bit, get it real warm and allow it to cool. drain the coolant, then re torque the head. back off each bolt, one at a time. Torque the head to 29(per the book). then do the 90 degree stuff.
Good luck with this, later robbie
Click to expand...

Yup as Powderpig said I did those run the engine a bit, get it warm and allow it to cool, drain coolant and oil then re-torque the head (about 14 bolts)

Torque the head 29 (per FSM) then 2x 90 degree each bolt..->same as I-6 mercedes and YES I know its real pain in the A..:frown: (finish all the 90 degree first then take break in between :beer:)
Harry_Bolt.JPG
 
I believe the LC uses a stretch to yield type of head bolt. Once they begin to stretch, you will get a sensation of them turning easily. This is because they are stretching, but they are still giving the proper torque. If you over stretch them, then that could present problems because they won't go back to their normal length after removal and won't give the proper torque rating.
 
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