Engine Rebuild Questions

[mrsvle]

Hi Folks,

I'm in the middle of rebuilding the 2F engine on my '83 FJ60 with 212,000 miles. I'm starting to get the feeling that its spinning out of control.

I have the block at the machine shop. We've already decided that I need a new cam (a decision confirmed when I posted pictures of the pitted cam lobes here). And either new or resurfaced lifters, though I don't know what the relative benefits of new vs. resurfaced might be other than cost.

I talked to the machinist and now he wants to bore the cylinders 0.5 mm over, which means I now need to buy new pistons and rings. He also says the crank shaft is at the lower end of the specs and wants to regrind, so I'll need oversize main and rod bearings as well.

He also wants to replace the timing gears and all new push rods. I don't think that all these things are in bad condition and it feels like were just replacing all these things to have them new for the sake of being new.

Or is it a good idea to just basically replace everything with an engine rebuild a 212,000 miles. It's just getting very expensive.

Finally, for ordering parts, do I order pistons, rings, and main and rod bearings at 0.5 mm over. And can oversize components be purchased as OEM or are they aftermarket components only.

Any guidance at this point would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

 

[krzyabncanuck]

I trust my machinist where i go so if he tells me it needs to be turned down then he knows better than me and my eyes.

There are specs in the FSM for everything in your motor. To include the timing gears.

Truthfully i would have him order the stuff you need as long as he is going to get good stuff. That is how i do it at my machine shop anyway. Some stuff i do get Toyota specific, as in gears and such.

 

[60wag]

Put the new stuff in, you'l be glad you did. Use Toyota timing gears - the crank gear is two pieces bonded together with rubber. The aftermarket gears are one piece.

The rings and pistons are spec'd at 0.5 over stock. My pistons were technically aftermarket by the machinist showed me that they are the same casting as OE with the "TEQ" stamp blocked out. I think the box was labled ITM. The oil pump box was also ITM but contained an Aisin pump.

Pay special attention to the assembly of the timing gear cover: All the little bolts are different lengths and it matters. Make sure the brass oil nozzle in the timing cover plate isn't bottomed on the front of the block. HTHs.

 

[Heartworm]

Agree about timing gear oiler

I agree with the aforementioned remark about the timing gear oiler. Threaded in too far creates a nightmare. Also, get your machinist to tap some threads in the little soft plug on the passenger's side of the head (around cylinder #4) and put in a threaded plug. The soft plugs can leak or blow out suddenly. Also, there are some soft plugs in the back of the block that are impossible to get to without pulling the engine so have him pay attention to them.

 

[FJ40Jim]

I'm in the middle of rebuilding the 2F engine on my '83 FJ60 with 212,000 miles. I'm starting to get the feeling that its spinning out of control.

I have the block at the machine shop. We've already decided that I need a new cam (a decision confirmed when I posted pictures of the pitted cam lobes here). And either new or resurfaced lifters, though I don't know what the relative benefits of new vs. resurfaced might be other than cost.

Cam and lifters almost always need replaced above 120K miles. The OEM cam is chromed (very thin) or surface hardened on yours (still too thin).

Go with new lifters from Cruiserparts.net. OEM at a good price.
Use a quality USA billet cam, names like Melling or Sealed power.

I talked to the machinist and now he wants to bore the cylinders 0.5 mm over, which means I now need to buy new pistons and rings. He also says the crank shaft is at the lower end of the specs and wants to regrind, so I'll need oversize main and rod bearings as well.

At 212K, the crank & block better be cut & punched.

Might as well punch 1MM. Price is the same, but you get a few more CC's displacement. That leaves one more punch to 1.5mm, just in case.

He also wants to replace the timing gears and all new push rods. I don't think that all these things are in bad condition and it feels like were just replacing all these things to have them new for the sake of being new.

Only replace the cam gear. The gears themselves don't wear, but the elastomer ring fails in the cam gear. Replace w/ a quality Japanese gear that does not have the elastomer ring. Clevite #G2202 is good.

I have never in 20 years bought a pushrod for a Cruiser engine. They don't wear. Even in the engines that were run with flipped headgasket, so there was no oil to the valvetrain.

Or is it a good idea to just basically replace everything with an engine rebuild a 212,000 miles. It's just getting very expensive.

The 2F is not a throwaway engine. Replace parts that need replacing (pistons, rings, cam & lifters, cam gear, bearings, core plugs, gaskets) Inspect other parts, replacing if needed (oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, rocker shaft, valvetrain, manifolds...) Drive for another 200K. rinse, lather, repeat.

Finally, for ordering parts, do I order pistons, rings, and main and rod bearings at 0.5 mm over. And can oversize components be purchased as OEM or are they aftermarket components only.

Order them at the size you decide is needed. Everything can be purchased from Toyota, if you want to drive your cruiser to the poorhouse when you're done.

Many things can be purchased in an aftermarket package from an OEM supplier (lifters, Clevite bearings, oil pump, Denso plugs, etc)

Some things should be supplied by a non-OEM manufacturer (FelPro manifold gasket, Melling camshaft, stainless valves, steel cam gear)

HTH.

 

[mrsvle]

Excellent advice gentlemen, thanks for your feedback.

Jim, does boring over 1.0 mm make a noticable difference in displacement and horsepower?

A quality USA billet cam is preferable to Toyota OEM? I didn't know that.

Thanks for the cam gear tip. No need to replace the gear on the crank.

One of the pushrods was bent. The others looked fine when rolled across the counter. Shall I just buy one new one? Or try to straighten the old one? Also, since I'm replacing the lifters, do I still need to worry about keeping all the push rods in order so they go back to their original positions?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[zebrabeefj40]

Just replace the bent push rod. No worries about where they go in the motor.

Nick

 

[FJ40Jim]

No calculator with me, so I don't remember the displacement for .5, 1.0 and 1.5mm overbores. But, there is no additional cost from .5 to 1.0, so I recommend doing it. Also, there is a compression increase with the bigger bore, so that is also free horsepower and MPG.

Yes, the OEM cam is crap, they should be replaced w/ the good USA billet.

Just replace the bent pushrod. And tell the mechanic to be more careful w/ your expensive Cruiser parts. You can replace w/ good used, no worries.

 

[PabloCruise]

Yes, the OEM cam is crap, they should be replaced w/ the good USA billet.

Do you prefer a new billet to a regrind?

BTW, could not find a 2F listing in Melling...

 

[FJ40Jim]

Do you prefer a new billet to a regrind?
BTW, could not find a 2F listing in Melling...

Prefer? Yes.

I have a USA cam in stock. The box on the shelf says
"Melling MC803
Hecho en USA".
The same cam is also available in a Sealed Power box, PN CS803.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

mrsvle, not to be offensive, but can you do a price listing after you're done?

That would be awesome. Thank you.

 

[mrsvle]

mrsvle, not to be offensive, but can you do a price listing after you're done?

That would be awesome. Thank you.

GLTHFJ60,

I have an Excel spreadsheet I've been working on. For the most part I've built a list of parts from Specters on-line catalog. Then, wanting to go with mostly OEM parts I sent the list to CDan and got a quote from him. For most things, CDan prices are better and guaranteed OEM. It's a bit scattered right now and still incomplete, I'm still working on getting the cam, pistons, rings, lifters, and all the various bearings. I also had the cylinder head rebuilt, but the machine shop sourced all the parts for that. I haven't paid yet so I don't have a break down on that yet. When I'm closer to having complete I'll be happy to send it to you.

Matt

 

[brett76]

GLTHFJ60,

I have an Excel spreadsheet I've been working on. For the most part I've built a list of parts from Specters on-line catalog. Then, wanting to go with mostly OEM parts I sent the list to CDan and got a quote from him. For most things, CDan prices are better and guaranteed OEM. It's a bit scattered right now and still incomplete, I'm still working on getting the cam, pistons, rings, lifters, and all the various bearings. I also had the cylinder head rebuilt, but the machine shop sourced all the parts for that. I haven't paid yet so I don't have a break down on that yet. When I'm closer to having complete I'll be happy to send it to you.

Matt

if you could post it that would be sick. or send to me as well

 

[mrsvle]

Melling Camshaft $194 from Autozone, other dealers

CAMSHAFT

MELLING CAMSHAFT for a 1983 TOYOTA TRUCK LAND CRUISER
Unit Price: $193.99Core Value*: $0.00Part No.: MC803Weight: 10.38 lbs.Warranty: 1 YRAvailability:

Online: Special Order

Store: Special Order

Retailers
Melling Engine Parts are sold through a broad network of national retailers. You can find our products at the following retailer outlets:

• ADVANCE AUTO PARTS
• ARIZONA WHOLSALE ENGINE PARTS
• ARROW SPEED WAREHOUSE
• AUTOZONE
• CARQUEST PRODUCTS INC
• JEG'S
• KEYSTONE AUTOMOTIVE
• MOTOR STATE PERFORMANCE WAREHOUSE
• MURRAY'S DISCOUNT AUTO
• NORTHERN AUTO PARTS WHSE
• O'REILLY AUTO PARTS
• SUMMIT RACING

 

[Ryan S.]

Mrsvle, playing the devils advocate here--why not put in a 350 or go diesel? I had my 2f completly rebuilt 3+ years ago. Don't get me wrong, the 2f has been and will continue to be for a long time a fine running motor. However, if I had been aware of this board and the huge amount of info on it, as well as the fine folks willing to help out I would have done things differently. The 2f is underpowered and a gas hog. A 350 will have plenty of power but minimal mpg gain, and a diesel will have plenty of power and a significant mpg gain. For the price involved in the rebuild, I am very dissapointed with the return on my investment. My needs (DD, camping, pulling a 2500lb trailer) for the cruiser may be different than yours, but who would not want more power and better mpg's? Something to think about.

 

[mrsvle]

The debate over the 2F vs the Chevy 350 swap is endless and has been going on for years. Basically it just seemed safer and much less hassle to rebuild the 2F instead of reconfiguring everything for the Chevy conversion. And I figured I could keep the cost down by doing most of the work, such as removing and reinstalling the engine. Also, my general understanding is that the 2F is better for the low end grunt work of off-roading.

General question: where can I buy the one piece (cleavite) cam gear from? I've done some internet searching, but haven't come up with any vendors. And, if the OEM pistons prove to be too expensive, I may need to go aftermarket with these as well. Know any good sources for a package deal? Do Specter and Man-a-Fre sell high quality aftermarket parts for engine rebuilding?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[zebrabeefj40]

I'd let the machine shop supply the pistons especially if they are doing the assembly of the motor. In the shop I worked for if we (the shop) supplied the parts and assembled the motor then you got a warrentee. If you supplied parts and/or assemblied it YOU were the warrentee.

YRMV...

Nick

 

[mrsvle]

Thanks, for the advice Zebrabee. A few people have mentioned that to me. It sounds like a good strategy, not to mention less expensive, but it seems the consensus on this list is OEM. Everyone usually says to go OEM with most parts. And it seems to make sense, afterall my FJ60 went 212,000 without any major engine problems. Is there really a significant difference between OEM and aftermarket parts when it comes to engine rebuilding? I just don't have enough experience to make a good judgement call there. Maybe I'll ask the machinist for his opinion on the matter.

Thanks for the feedback.

Matt

 

[roscoFJ73]

The Japanese are not the only ones who can make a good bearing/piston/gasket/seal.
ACL bearings are as good as Toyotas brand .

I would also have the conrods balanced. Machinists in both the US and Australia have found the F rods to vary as much as an ounze in weight .
My engine rebuilder says he used to charge extra for it but found that so many needed doing he just does them all

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Good thread-and thanks Jim for the super informative posts above. I'm a year or two away from a rebuild on my '76 so I'm saving the info about the cam and the like.

I have heard very good things about balancing a 2F from Mark ("Mark's Offroad") so that would be part of the plan.

Just since I want to, is it possible for the machine shop to do all the machine work, and then assemble myself? I've always wanted to build another motor-I last did one in 1980!