80 Series 3FE Conversion Write-Up
I'm in the middle of a 3FE conversion on my 85 FJ60 and figured I would add my part to the world of LC knowledge. I only have weekends to work on this so info will come about accordingly.
Some background...
I drove my truck from IL to CA and probably over worked it a bit too hard. You can google elripster and over heating to read about it but I won't bore you here. What is important is that I find myself in the most smog hostile state with an engine that's been desmogged and is losing compression in #6. It's down to 100 psi, not terrible, but there is a lot of blow by causing the PCV to plug up and pressurize the crank case (oil everywhere). Not good, time to find another solution. I threw up a post for discussion a while back and this 3FE swap came from all that input.
My reasoning for a 3FE swap as opposed to the many other options.
- I want an engine that will pass smog in CA. Fuel injection is your friend here.
- I want to keep my Land Cruiser all Toyota, I'm a purist, what can I say?
- I would prefer to keep my LC all LC, I have an American 4X4 with dual lockers, 4:1 t-case gears with a nice American powertrain, I want my LC for all that it is and isn't.
- I want to get parts at the autoparts store down the street - imported powertrains are not the most desirable from this standpoint.
- I don't feel like fabricating, sure I can, I'm an engineer and have my own license for solidworks, but I am very busy and time is in short supply. I want to bolt it in and start to enjoy this truck.
- As far as much newer OBDII engines, control system reverse engineering is well within my capabilities but since we are renting for a year (new job=reason for relocating) before we buy, I don't have a place for the half cut while I figure out how to spoof the CAN bus to trick a nice new OBDII engine to run in an OBD-zero truck. This truck needs to be registered and I don't think it will make it another year the way the engine is hemorrhaging oil.
- I don't need my truck to be really fast, but I would like fuel injection and a few more ponies would make me smile - the 3FE does just this.
- I'm trying to keep costs under control, that's relatively speaking of course. There isn't really an "affordable" way to do this (or a 2F rebuild) but I don't want to spend $5k.
If you find yourself agreeing with my logic you might want to consider swapping a 2f for a 3FE. I suggest looking for an FJ62 as a donor, as it turns out there is a bit more work converting to an 80 series 3FE. It's not a ton, it's still a bolt in, but it's not "plug & play" anymore.
Now the realities of a "bolt in" swap.
You are probably buying a used engine with an unknown history. I bought mine from a local mudder with a video of it running. That's about the best you can do unless you have a friend who will let you pick apart their truck and you get to benefit from a known history.
The reality is that your used engine is going to need some parts. You might chose to run it as is but if not get ready to do a thorough evaluation of your engine. All of this is bolt in, but there can be a lot of "bolting".
To make this swap you need a few things:
- Engine
- ECU
- Engine harness
- Charcoal Canister and associated vacuum control valve.
- All accessories, PS, alternator, are in different places. The smog pump and AC use different lines. You need the accessories AND the hoses if you want it all to bolt up.
- 3FE smog components, this means the VSVs, air pump diaphram, and silencer. If you get one from an FJ62 the brackets will bolt up. Mine is from an 80 so a little bending and drilling will be required but nothing big.
- The 80 does not have rear heat so if you want to keep it you need to get a t-fitting for the rear heat return, pictures will explain this better.
- There might be more but that's all I can think of so far. Since my truck was missing smog stuff I need it all from the donor vehicle. If anyone can chime is as to what can be carried over, if anything, from a 60 to a 62, pipe up and I'll amend this part of the post.
- If you are really lucky you might get the cruise control module and original dash harness to play with down the road so you can have CC. You will need an output shaft speed sensor which I have not figured out yet.
- You will need to drill out the flywheel holes to accept the larger 3FE hardware. I believe a .430 drill bit will do the trick.
- You will need to drill the shroud holes to lower the shroud about .5" or use an FJ62 3FE shroud.
- It's not necessary but not a bad idea to use an FJ62 gas tank instead of the 60 tank w/ external pump. The 62 tank will scavenge fuel better when the level gets low than the stock 60 tank will.
- You might as well get "one click" with McMaster-Carr. You will need lots of hose clamps, tubing, crimps, etc.. all of which can be delivered at your doorstep in a day or two from MMC. I am using the high pressure small tubing clamps on my fuel lines which are especially helpful when getting the tube to clamp onto a non-barbed metal tube. Sometimes I wrap the rubber hose which a little duct tape to increase the diameter so the clamps grip tighter if I spot leaks.
There are some things you will not need..
This backing plate is not required. The 2F bellhousing will go in its place.
The brackets that likely add strength for the heavier auto are not required.
These trans cooler lines aren't required...
But the nuts that fasten them also hold on this nifty 2F fuel pump block off plate you will need to reinstall...
A small child (my son in this case) playing in grass to keep you from swearing too much...
I decided to really go through the engine and replace wear parts. This is where costs get fuzzy. If you like leaks, you can forego much of this, but if not...
You can buy what is claimed to be the whole enchilada from Cruiserparts.net as far as what is required for the swap. If so, 2500 bucks is not necessarily a bad deal although you have to add accessories on top of that. In the end if you need everything from them you might be looking at $3k? Not totally sure since I didn't go that route.
I bought an engine for $900 running. I got most accessories but needed to buy a new PS pump. I needed to also buy new hoses for the PS pump. I will probably need to fab up a new cable for the alternator.
- Shipping from TX to CA was just shy of $400 with insurance through u-ship.
- I'm replacing a lot of parts, water pump, all coolant hoses, cap, rotor, plugs, plug wires, fuel pulsation damper, new fuel pump, new fuel filter, new air filter, new thermostat, new rad cap, side cover gasket, valve cover gasket, rear main seal, pan gasket, and probably some other stuff I can't remember. It needs all of this.
- I need a new section of intake tubing due to the cracking oem stuff. Sure I could tape it up but not this time.
- I like to buy new tools when I have an "excuse" so I got a heavy duty engine stand and clutch centering tool.
- My clutch measured out Ok but I got the flywheel resurfaced. When the clutch finally goes it will be H55F time.
- I need to have a 2-1 exhaust fabbed up. I'm going to have the whole thing done 2.5" with new cat.
- I need to replace a smog pump hose that is cracking, haven't priced it yet.
- I'm going to replace ALL the vacuum lines, they are old and if they don't need it now they will soon.
- After running it for some time I blew the exhaust manifold gasket. While in there I replaced the fuel pressure regulator and all 6 injectors with Rockauto remans (cheap!) and it made a huge difference. The engine had been running very rich with 9MPG on average. The engine also struggled to warm up per the temp gauge and IR thermo. Now it warms up much faster, idles smoother, and has much more power. I recommend replacing these parts if there are signs of running rich.
Total cost? I haven't even had time to add it up. I will easily spend $2500 you'd spend at cruiser parts (including new tools) and likely more but at least I will have a boat load of new (tools and) parts on this engine going in. The 2F AC compressor will not work. I received the compressor with this engine but figure another $450 for new one if you need one. The existing AC hoses appear to connect up but you will likely need to extend the wire that activates the clutch. Keep in mind you'd spend the same amount I would to have the exhaust fabbed up regardless of where you get your engine, unless of course, your ever generous friend lets you pluck that from a donor truck as well. It could happen. If not, expect to pay between $1100 and $1200 for a full exhaust with both cats and 02 sensors.
If you have the option of a truck you can park next to yours and do the swap, knowing that the parts have lots of life in them, you can do the swap for the quoted price of the parts. This of course assumes you have the tools. I have a shop crane which has helped immensely and my solvent tank is getting a workout. If not, what I'm trying to convey is, you will need to spend some more money on top of the engine purchase and transport costs (if there are any) to get the engine ready for duty in your truck or put up with the worn out stuff it will come with.
Documentation: One thing I have found is there is a LOT less information available online for the 3FE than the 2F but it is there. I have scoured and printed up lots of stuff and should have what I need. I used these... http://www.yankeetoys.org/KLF/EPCDiags/3FE_FSMSchematics.pdf and the AC schematic from the 84-90 FSM for all of the wiring. In essence, the ECU and the neutral safety switch need 12V. The ECU otherwise stands alone with the engine harness with minimal interaction with the rest of the truck. CC is one thing one would need to research. I haven't done so and I'm sure there will be signals missing (like veh speed) that I will have to work around but to get it to run shouldn't be hard. I'm relying on pictures and random schematics for the evap and other emissions components. You will need to run 12V to the new 45 psi fuel pump required for the fuel injection system. You need a new fuel filter too. None of this is any harder than wiring up a stereo, it just takes time.
I wish I had made all that I had found into a PDF but I just printed as I ran across things, maybe I can put it all together later.
Here are somethings you might find in a used engine...
... and why I would suggest going through a used engine thoroughly unless you know the history says otherwise.
Sludge, sludge, and more of it. I have some more pics but it's depressing to look at... at least for me. I scrubbed oil pan for about an hour in my solvent tank and it came clean. I am letting the valve cover and side covers soak all week because I got tired of scrubbing. I will probably need to do a kerosene/oil mixture with prolonged idle and immediate flush followed by a 100 mile, 250 mile, and 500 mile oil change before going to regular intervals. I cleaned out the oil pump screen but man there is a lot of chunky-ness stuck to everything.
Right now the engine is on the stand, new rear main and oil pan gasket are installed. I plan to do the majority of the engine maintenance next weekend. This means I will have to forgo the Pismo Jam but I really want to make the last S&T so I'm on a mission.
Please feel free to post up questions and comments. My hope is to have a nice complete thread anyone can follow should they decide on this mod.
When I get to the electrical mods I'll take pics and describe them.
Next weekend more pics to come and commentary on the trials and tribulations of engine swapping!
Frank
I'm in the middle of a 3FE conversion on my 85 FJ60 and figured I would add my part to the world of LC knowledge. I only have weekends to work on this so info will come about accordingly.
Some background...
I drove my truck from IL to CA and probably over worked it a bit too hard. You can google elripster and over heating to read about it but I won't bore you here. What is important is that I find myself in the most smog hostile state with an engine that's been desmogged and is losing compression in #6. It's down to 100 psi, not terrible, but there is a lot of blow by causing the PCV to plug up and pressurize the crank case (oil everywhere). Not good, time to find another solution. I threw up a post for discussion a while back and this 3FE swap came from all that input.
My reasoning for a 3FE swap as opposed to the many other options.
- I want an engine that will pass smog in CA. Fuel injection is your friend here.
- I want to keep my Land Cruiser all Toyota, I'm a purist, what can I say?
- I would prefer to keep my LC all LC, I have an American 4X4 with dual lockers, 4:1 t-case gears with a nice American powertrain, I want my LC for all that it is and isn't.
- I want to get parts at the autoparts store down the street - imported powertrains are not the most desirable from this standpoint.
- I don't feel like fabricating, sure I can, I'm an engineer and have my own license for solidworks, but I am very busy and time is in short supply. I want to bolt it in and start to enjoy this truck.
- As far as much newer OBDII engines, control system reverse engineering is well within my capabilities but since we are renting for a year (new job=reason for relocating) before we buy, I don't have a place for the half cut while I figure out how to spoof the CAN bus to trick a nice new OBDII engine to run in an OBD-zero truck. This truck needs to be registered and I don't think it will make it another year the way the engine is hemorrhaging oil.
- I don't need my truck to be really fast, but I would like fuel injection and a few more ponies would make me smile - the 3FE does just this.
- I'm trying to keep costs under control, that's relatively speaking of course. There isn't really an "affordable" way to do this (or a 2F rebuild) but I don't want to spend $5k.
If you find yourself agreeing with my logic you might want to consider swapping a 2f for a 3FE. I suggest looking for an FJ62 as a donor, as it turns out there is a bit more work converting to an 80 series 3FE. It's not a ton, it's still a bolt in, but it's not "plug & play" anymore.
Now the realities of a "bolt in" swap.
You are probably buying a used engine with an unknown history. I bought mine from a local mudder with a video of it running. That's about the best you can do unless you have a friend who will let you pick apart their truck and you get to benefit from a known history.
The reality is that your used engine is going to need some parts. You might chose to run it as is but if not get ready to do a thorough evaluation of your engine. All of this is bolt in, but there can be a lot of "bolting".
To make this swap you need a few things:
- Engine
- ECU
- Engine harness
- Charcoal Canister and associated vacuum control valve.
- All accessories, PS, alternator, are in different places. The smog pump and AC use different lines. You need the accessories AND the hoses if you want it all to bolt up.
- 3FE smog components, this means the VSVs, air pump diaphram, and silencer. If you get one from an FJ62 the brackets will bolt up. Mine is from an 80 so a little bending and drilling will be required but nothing big.
- The 80 does not have rear heat so if you want to keep it you need to get a t-fitting for the rear heat return, pictures will explain this better.
- There might be more but that's all I can think of so far. Since my truck was missing smog stuff I need it all from the donor vehicle. If anyone can chime is as to what can be carried over, if anything, from a 60 to a 62, pipe up and I'll amend this part of the post.
- If you are really lucky you might get the cruise control module and original dash harness to play with down the road so you can have CC. You will need an output shaft speed sensor which I have not figured out yet.
- You will need to drill out the flywheel holes to accept the larger 3FE hardware. I believe a .430 drill bit will do the trick.
- You will need to drill the shroud holes to lower the shroud about .5" or use an FJ62 3FE shroud.
- It's not necessary but not a bad idea to use an FJ62 gas tank instead of the 60 tank w/ external pump. The 62 tank will scavenge fuel better when the level gets low than the stock 60 tank will.
- You might as well get "one click" with McMaster-Carr. You will need lots of hose clamps, tubing, crimps, etc.. all of which can be delivered at your doorstep in a day or two from MMC. I am using the high pressure small tubing clamps on my fuel lines which are especially helpful when getting the tube to clamp onto a non-barbed metal tube. Sometimes I wrap the rubber hose which a little duct tape to increase the diameter so the clamps grip tighter if I spot leaks.
There are some things you will not need..
This backing plate is not required. The 2F bellhousing will go in its place.
The brackets that likely add strength for the heavier auto are not required.
These trans cooler lines aren't required...
But the nuts that fasten them also hold on this nifty 2F fuel pump block off plate you will need to reinstall...
A small child (my son in this case) playing in grass to keep you from swearing too much...
I decided to really go through the engine and replace wear parts. This is where costs get fuzzy. If you like leaks, you can forego much of this, but if not...
You can buy what is claimed to be the whole enchilada from Cruiserparts.net as far as what is required for the swap. If so, 2500 bucks is not necessarily a bad deal although you have to add accessories on top of that. In the end if you need everything from them you might be looking at $3k? Not totally sure since I didn't go that route.
I bought an engine for $900 running. I got most accessories but needed to buy a new PS pump. I needed to also buy new hoses for the PS pump. I will probably need to fab up a new cable for the alternator.
- Shipping from TX to CA was just shy of $400 with insurance through u-ship.
- I'm replacing a lot of parts, water pump, all coolant hoses, cap, rotor, plugs, plug wires, fuel pulsation damper, new fuel pump, new fuel filter, new air filter, new thermostat, new rad cap, side cover gasket, valve cover gasket, rear main seal, pan gasket, and probably some other stuff I can't remember. It needs all of this.
- I need a new section of intake tubing due to the cracking oem stuff. Sure I could tape it up but not this time.
- I like to buy new tools when I have an "excuse" so I got a heavy duty engine stand and clutch centering tool.
- My clutch measured out Ok but I got the flywheel resurfaced. When the clutch finally goes it will be H55F time.
- I need to have a 2-1 exhaust fabbed up. I'm going to have the whole thing done 2.5" with new cat.
- I need to replace a smog pump hose that is cracking, haven't priced it yet.
- I'm going to replace ALL the vacuum lines, they are old and if they don't need it now they will soon.
- After running it for some time I blew the exhaust manifold gasket. While in there I replaced the fuel pressure regulator and all 6 injectors with Rockauto remans (cheap!) and it made a huge difference. The engine had been running very rich with 9MPG on average. The engine also struggled to warm up per the temp gauge and IR thermo. Now it warms up much faster, idles smoother, and has much more power. I recommend replacing these parts if there are signs of running rich.
Total cost? I haven't even had time to add it up. I will easily spend $2500 you'd spend at cruiser parts (including new tools) and likely more but at least I will have a boat load of new (tools and) parts on this engine going in. The 2F AC compressor will not work. I received the compressor with this engine but figure another $450 for new one if you need one. The existing AC hoses appear to connect up but you will likely need to extend the wire that activates the clutch. Keep in mind you'd spend the same amount I would to have the exhaust fabbed up regardless of where you get your engine, unless of course, your ever generous friend lets you pluck that from a donor truck as well. It could happen. If not, expect to pay between $1100 and $1200 for a full exhaust with both cats and 02 sensors.
If you have the option of a truck you can park next to yours and do the swap, knowing that the parts have lots of life in them, you can do the swap for the quoted price of the parts. This of course assumes you have the tools. I have a shop crane which has helped immensely and my solvent tank is getting a workout. If not, what I'm trying to convey is, you will need to spend some more money on top of the engine purchase and transport costs (if there are any) to get the engine ready for duty in your truck or put up with the worn out stuff it will come with.
Documentation: One thing I have found is there is a LOT less information available online for the 3FE than the 2F but it is there. I have scoured and printed up lots of stuff and should have what I need. I used these... http://www.yankeetoys.org/KLF/EPCDiags/3FE_FSMSchematics.pdf and the AC schematic from the 84-90 FSM for all of the wiring. In essence, the ECU and the neutral safety switch need 12V. The ECU otherwise stands alone with the engine harness with minimal interaction with the rest of the truck. CC is one thing one would need to research. I haven't done so and I'm sure there will be signals missing (like veh speed) that I will have to work around but to get it to run shouldn't be hard. I'm relying on pictures and random schematics for the evap and other emissions components. You will need to run 12V to the new 45 psi fuel pump required for the fuel injection system. You need a new fuel filter too. None of this is any harder than wiring up a stereo, it just takes time.
I wish I had made all that I had found into a PDF but I just printed as I ran across things, maybe I can put it all together later.
Here are somethings you might find in a used engine...
... and why I would suggest going through a used engine thoroughly unless you know the history says otherwise.
Sludge, sludge, and more of it. I have some more pics but it's depressing to look at... at least for me. I scrubbed oil pan for about an hour in my solvent tank and it came clean. I am letting the valve cover and side covers soak all week because I got tired of scrubbing. I will probably need to do a kerosene/oil mixture with prolonged idle and immediate flush followed by a 100 mile, 250 mile, and 500 mile oil change before going to regular intervals. I cleaned out the oil pump screen but man there is a lot of chunky-ness stuck to everything.
Right now the engine is on the stand, new rear main and oil pan gasket are installed. I plan to do the majority of the engine maintenance next weekend. This means I will have to forgo the Pismo Jam but I really want to make the last S&T so I'm on a mission.
Please feel free to post up questions and comments. My hope is to have a nice complete thread anyone can follow should they decide on this mod.
When I get to the electrical mods I'll take pics and describe them.
Next weekend more pics to come and commentary on the trials and tribulations of engine swapping!
Frank
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