Aux lights - fuse or CB

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80t0ylc

Hill & Gully Rider
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When or if you install aux lights that don't come in a kit that you buy at a store, don't make the mistake I did. You might think that an in line fuse holder would be sufficient to protect your equipment. Well, most plastic fuse holders are good for 5 or 10 amps, maybe even 20 with a quality design. They have a max rating which you should be aware of when you buy it. Putting a 30 amp fuse in a holder that's cheaply built or not designed for the current will result in this:
IMG_0270.jpg


I cut the fuse holder open with a Dremel tool to discover what I could. The fuse holder came with 12AWG wire attached to it, so I figured, it would handle the current; wrong :rolleyes:. The internal spring is not sufficient to prevent the ends of the fuse from heating up and melting the fuse holder and, thank God, blowing the fuse, before starting a fire. Look at the remnant of the fuse, melted to the white plastic holder and the cap contact that I'm holding in my hand:
IMG_0276.jpg

IMG_0272.jpg


This is what you want to use for high amp protection:

CH_30171sm.gif


Available at auto parts stores or electrical suppliers. A circuit breaker. The current type 1 CB will cycle between open and closed until the load drops below the rating. (EDIT: I recommend using a type 2 or type 3 CB instead of a type 1 since operator intervention is required before power is returned to the circuit. Reason being that it was brought up in a later post in this thread that if there is a short, and it goes unnoticed, the contacts inside the CB could "weld on" rendering the CB useless and causing a potentially dangerous fire hazard.) Make sure you get the correct size and use properly crimped terminal lugs to terminate to it. Any loose or bad connections will heat up and become a problem to other wires or components around it. If you look closely at the holder in the following pic, you can see the evidence of overheating, which was my 1st clue that my problem was more than a blown fuse, when my aux lights failed their 1st test:
IMG_0273.jpg


That's why I cut the ***** open with the Dremel.
 
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Good post.

How big & what brand were the lights ?.

John
 
........How big & what brand were the lights ?.

John

Thanks. They're 6" and have a TLC logo on them. They were on my rig when I bought it, just not hooked up. Chrome housings, kinda remind of the KC Daylighters. I'll try and post pix of them later, I'm at work now. But, they're bright. And they get hot, too.
 
Here's a pic of the logo on the light

IMG_0279.jpg


That's all I know on the brand or model. Tried googling TLC lights without much success for ID'ing the model or candlepower.

Some more pix on the looks on my rig:

IMG_0277.jpg

IMG_0280.jpg

IMG_0278.jpg


I like the way they mount - solid and easy to adjust.

IMG_0281.jpg



And are they bright? Wow! On the 1st test the other night, the fuse lasted about 5 minutes. When it died I thought I was going blind:rolleyes:. You get spoiled easy. I'll try to get pix of the difference in illumination when I get the chance for another test.
 
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Yeah, no tellin' but they do look a bit like old school KC Daylighters. Must draw a bunch of amps/wattage to melt the fuse like it did.

I use the in line fuses on my Hellas w/no issues. Mine are only the Hella 500's & don't put out or draw that much, but I am going to keep circut breakers in mind when I upgrade to bigger lights.

Thanks, John
 
Well, the circuit breaker works fine. However, my 30 yr old charging system was not up to the test. I either did in a fusible link or something in the alternator. The charge light came on and won't go off. Will do PD tomorrow or this weekend.

This is low beams:

IMG_0285.jpg


High beams:

IMG_0286.jpg


TLC aux lights & high beams:

IMG_0283.jpg
 
Well, not real impressed with Mr. T's design for alternator access on my Mini's 22R :bang:. I need to pull the alternator to get to the brushes, but to get it out I need to drain the coolant and pull the lower radiator hose. The charge light was off when I started it the next day, but I don't trust it. Besides aux lights, I'm also running a winch, so I need a healthy charging system.
 
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Hey Tom, You can also get beefier blade style inline fuses good for 30amps.
Do you use a relay to power your lights?

Is that you, Matt?:cool: Howdy!!!

Yeah, blade fuses would be better, but still not as good IMHO, as the CB with the posts for terminal lugs. Especially with the vibration running off road.

Yes, I used the Radio Shack 30 amp auto relay. IMHO, best way to control aux lights.

I also ended up replacing the alternator. It turned out to be an after market unit that looked like it had been submerged, neglected and full of weeds, dirt, bugs and spider webs. I was impressed with the performance it gave me before it started malfunctioning, for it's internal condition. The 50 amp NAPA rebuilt unit I replaced it with looked similar on the outside. It was $54 and has a limited lifetime warranty. It should be fine for my rig with occasional aux light and winch use. I'm glad my cooling system needed attention because it sure would be annoying to have to drain good coolant to do this job. :cheers:
 
Hey Tom, You can also get beefier blade style inline fuses good for 30amps.
Do you use a relay to power your lights?

This is interesting, I did not know this.

Are we saying that a 20 amp blade style is stronger than 20 amp glass ?

And 80t, glad to see you are on your way to recovery.

John
 
Sayin a 30 amp blade style is beefier than what is in the pics melted is all.
Blades contact on both sides of the...blades. And a glass fuse just contacts a small spot on the ends.


Yup its me Matt.
 
If you're talking high current connections, think about the normal battery cables. They need to be tight, clean and just as important, they need to be of sufficient size. Smaller current needs can get away with the glass fuses because the "spring action" that is used to maintain contact between fuse and holder is not super critical. However, time and vibration have a way of relaxing the spring action and this eventually will cause these connections to heat up because the looseness is introducing resistance. If you've ever seen fuse boxes in older rigs that the plastic looks melted around the glass fuse contacts, that's exactly whats happening. The newer "blade" style maintains a better connection as it ages. Troublesome glass fuse circuits, where you are frequently replacing fuses are even worse, though. Every time you replace a fuse, you're adding to metal fatigue on the glass fuse contacts and possibly introducing either grease or dirt between the fuse and contacts, which makes it even worse. Blade fuse are better because the sliding/s****ing action as you remove and replace the fuse actually cleans the connection between fuse and holder.

All things being equal, CBs, fusible links or fuses with posts for terminating the connections with terminal lugs will give you the best performance. Reason being you have a positive retention for your terminations. They'll hold up longer for age and vibration. But, they're also more expensive. :hillbilly:
 
...

All things being equal, CBs, fusible links or fuses with posts for terminating the connections with terminal lugs will give you the best performance. Reason being you have a positive retention for your terminations. They'll hold up longer for age and vibration. But, they're also more expensive. :hillbilly:

Not sure I agree with your choice of a CB for a *light* install. IMO, your only mistake was using an inline AGC fuse holder. They are not meant to be 'enclosed', because the solder on the ends generate heat, which in a "waterproof" housing is a recipe for the disaster in your original post. A waterproof ATC style fuse holder does the job on *lights* better than the CB you installed.

The problem with the Auto reset type 1 circuit breaker you used is, the failure of lights is rarely (if ever) 'load' related (ala a winch/motor overheating), it's almost always a short-related failure. Type 1 auto circuit breakers will continually try to reset. In the event the failure of your wiring in the lights (short to ground), the Type 1 CB will continually attempt to reset. The risk with a common light ground-fault is the Type 1 CB can eventually fail in the 'welded on' position.

I run 2 100w Hella Rallye 2000 on my 94 LC, and use the more common ATC (blade type fuse) holder with a 30amp load rating, with a 30amp 4pin relay. I have used this type setup for years in my old ProRally car as well without issue.

In summary I agree with your warning on the inline fuse, as it's not designed to be in a housing. If using a circuit breaker is your cup o tea, I would use the ATC Type 3 *Manual Reset* CB that fits in a ATC fuse holder. Otherwise, my own preference is, if the lights are blowing fuses OR a circuit breaker, you have a more basic wiring issue that needs immediate attention. A standard issue ATC waterproof fuse holder will work just fine until that short happens....

HTH and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
2 x Rallye 2000 Pencil Beam w/ 100w bulbs
1 x 30amp ATC fuse holder before Hella 30amp relay
 
Not sure I agree with your choice of a CB for a *light* install. IMO, your only mistake was using an inline AGC fuse holder. They are not meant to be 'enclosed', because the solder on the ends generate heat, which in a "waterproof" housing is a recipe for the disaster in your original post. A waterproof ATC style fuse holder does the job on *lights* better than the CB you installed.

The problem with the Auto reset type 1 circuit breaker you used is, the failure of lights is rarely (if ever) 'load' related (ala a winch/motor overheating), it's almost always a short-related failure. Type 1 auto circuit breakers will continually try to reset. In the event the failure of your wiring in the lights (short to ground), the Type 1 CB will continually attempt to reset. The risk with a common light ground-fault is the Type 1 CB can eventually fail in the 'welded on' position.

I run 2 100w Hella Rallye 2000 on my 94 LC, and use the more common ATC (blade type fuse) holder with a 30amp load rating, with a 30amp 4pin relay. I have used this type setup for years in my old ProRally car as well without issue.

In summary I agree with your warning on the inline fuse, as it's not designed to be in a housing. If using a circuit breaker is your cup o tea, I would use the ATC Type 3 *Manual Reset* CB that fits in a ATC fuse holder. Otherwise, my own preference is, if the lights are blowing fuses OR a circuit breaker, you have a more basic wiring issue that needs immediate attention. A standard issue ATC waterproof fuse holder will work just fine until that short happens....

HTH and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
2 x Rallye 2000 Pencil Beam w/ 100w bulbs
1 x 30amp ATC fuse holder before Hella 30amp relay

I understand your concern, but I've worked in electronics since 1973 and can recognize the symptoms for most electrical problems, with some studying. Not gonna claim that I've seen it all, but I've seen my share. If you noticed in my 1st post, I mentioned that the newer CBs would cycle until the load drops below the rating. Or as you mentioned, if the operator does nothing, it could "weld on". It could also completely open up. But for my purposes and my tastes, I prefer the CB and the terminal lug connections. Thanks for mentioning the possibility of "welding on". It would be a concern to someone with out much electrical experience.
 
I understand your concern, but I've worked in electronics since 1973 and can recognize the symptoms for most electrical problems, with some studying. Not gonna claim that I've seen it all, but I've seen my share. If you noticed in my 1st post, I mentioned that the newer CBs would cycle until the load drops below the rating. Or as you mentioned, if the operator does nothing, it could "weld on". It could also completely open up. But for my purposes and my tastes, I prefer the CB and the terminal lug connections. Thanks for mentioning the possibility of "welding on". It would be a concern to someone with out much electrical experience.

And all that said, it's the claims that a Circuit Breaker is 'better' for aux lights for the reasons you mentioned, that peaked my interest. "Load" on a set of lights doesn't vary enough to blow a fuse/CB, either the light bulb is going to burn out due to age/cycling, or there is a 'short' in the wiring that needs immediate attention. Fix the short and put in another ATC fuse. The circuit is already 'dead' so you don't need to disconnect anything while fixing the problem. The auto-reset CB is considered a live circuit until it's physically disconnected.

IMO/E an inline AGC fuse on aux lights is a basic wiring mistake, and a CB just doesn't seem any better in application to me. For point of reference, there isn't a single Hella Aux lamp/relay/harness that uses a CB instead of a ATC fuse. The two experts in the field of aux lights are:
Susquehanna MotorSports - High Performance Vehicle Lighting and Competition Accessories
Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

Neither recommend nor list a CB for Aux lights, for exactly the reasons I've proposed. It's not the cost, it's the fact that a standard issue weather protected ATC fuse is the best tool for the job of protecting lighting circuits. In my own 30 years of wiring/installing aux lighting, this is the first time I've seen or heard of using a CB in place of a ATC fuse. 'It works', but really tough to argue 'it's better'.

Cheers and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged - Rallye 2000 relayed with ATC fuse protection
92 Audi V8 - Hella Eurolight conversion - 2xrelays with ATC fuse protection
87 Audi 4000 turbo quattro - Bosch Eurolights - 2xrelays with ATC fuse protection
84 Audi Turbo Quattro Coupe - Cibie quad 4 eurolights - 2xrelays with ATC fuse protection
ex
81 Scirocco Open Class ProRally car
4x Cibie euro conversions with ATC fuse protection
3x Cibie Oscar plus driving lights with ATC fuse protection
2x Hella 195 corner lights with ATC fuse protection
 
And all that said, it's the claims that a Circuit Breaker is 'better' for aux lights for the reasons you mentioned, that peaked my interest. "Load" on a set of lights doesn't vary enough to blow a fuse/CB, either the light bulb is going to burn out due to age/cycling, or there is a 'short' in the wiring that needs immediate attention. Fix the short and put in another ATC fuse. The circuit is already 'dead' so you don't need to disconnect anything while fixing the problem. The auto-reset CB is considered a live circuit until it's physically disconnected.

IMO/E an inline AGC fuse on aux lights is a basic wiring mistake, and a CB just doesn't seem any better in application to me. For point of reference, there isn't a single Hella Aux lamp/relay/harness that uses a CB instead of a ATC fuse. The two experts in the field of aux lights are:
Susquehanna MotorSports - High Performance Vehicle Lighting and Competition Accessories
Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

Neither recommend nor list a CB for Aux lights, for exactly the reasons I've proposed. It's not the cost, it's the fact that a standard issue weather protected ATC fuse is the best tool for the job of protecting lighting circuits. In my own 30 years of wiring/installing aux lighting, this is the first time I've seen or heard of using a CB in place of a ATC fuse. 'It works', but really tough to argue 'it's better'.

Cheers and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged - Rallye 2000 relayed with ATC fuse protection
92 Audi V8 - Hella Eurolight conversion - 2xrelays with ATC fuse protection
87 Audi 4000 turbo quattro - Bosch Eurolights - 2xrelays with ATC fuse protection
84 Audi Turbo Quattro Coupe - Cibie quad 4 eurolights - 2xrelays with ATC fuse protection
ex
81 Scirocco Open Class ProRally car
4x Cibie euro conversions with ATC fuse protection
3x Cibie Oscar plus driving lights with ATC fuse protection
2x Hella 195 corner lights with ATC fuse protection

Do what you want. Neither one of your links was any help at all for information about type 1 or any type of automotive CB. Best one I could find was this one: Cooper

From their recommendations and being that it's my Aux lights that are protected by the type 1 CB and not an essential circuit, I have no worries. I can just switch the lights off and troubleshoot the circuit if they're cycling on and off.
But I do think that this dialog we're discussing is valuable information to those who will consider whether to use a CB or fuse to protect their aux lighting systems. I also agree that the type 2 or 3 would be a better choice, if available. 2 main points to remember in aux lighting: 1.) Install a relay to control the switching on and off for your lights and 2.) Install the fuse or CB as close to your 12v source in your wiring as possible.
 
Do what you want. Neither one of your links was any help at all for information about type 1 or any type of automotive CB. Best one I could find was this one: Cooper

From their recommendations and being that it's my Aux lights that are protected by the type 1 CB and not an essential circuit, I have no worries. I can just switch the lights off and troubleshoot the circuit if they're cycling on and off.
But I do think that this dialog we're discussing is valuable information to those who will consider whether to use a CB or fuse to protect their aux lighting systems. I also agree that the type 2 or 3 would be a better choice, if available. 2 main points to remember in aux lighting: 1.) Install a relay to control the switching on and off for your lights and 2.) Install the fuse or CB as close to your 12v source in your wiring as possible.

Both the links have tech pages that show 'how to' properly wire a aux lighting circuit with relay triggers. The exact point being neither show a CB, because neither recommends them. The reason being, it's really no better than the inline fuse you used originally. That is, assuming the primary mission of aux light circuit failure-prevention to be: Protect and Isolate.

Scenario:
300mile daylight driving offroad = lights off:
With all that bouncing around off-road, the 12v feed wire from the battery to relay rubs on a bracket and shorts to ground. With ATC fuse = fuse will blow, and the faulty circuit is isolated and protected. The auto-reset CB will trip. The faulty circuit is *temporarily* isolated and protected. Likely by design: The CB will continuously attempt to reset until it welds in the 'on' position from over-heat. The lights are not cycled, because the ground-fault is prior to the relay.

Question: Which is the 'better' designed lighting circuit?

My Conclusion: In the scenario above, I doubt you'd have any idea anything was wrong prior to catastrophic failure. Hence my point, the Auto-reset CB is not the proper circuit protection device for Aux lights. Specifically, the ATC fuse gives better protection to the primary directive. IF using a CB is a must-do, a Manual Reset Type 3 should be the minimum protection.

I don't share your opinion that this is a 'personal' preference issue. If there was an aux lighting FAQ, the inline fuse issue you OP is good, and is a well known issue in automotive applications. Albeit the failure is not the spring, it's the fact that the fuse is not meant to be enclosed, so it overheats the internal fuse element to end-cap solder (as shown in your pics actually).

Cost, ruggedness, vibration failure, lugged attachment making CB 'better' are all opinions that aren't supported by the experts in Aux lighting. Put a ATC fuse close to the battery in the feed to the relay, and enjoy the better light, and the security that the circuit is *properly* protected and isolated in the event of failure.

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Rallye 2000 ATC Fuse protected
picture.php
 
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Thanks for your persistence, Scott. I've edited my initial post to recommend a type 2 or 3 CB, instead of type 1. I still believe using a CB is adequate protection. I may switch to the type 2 or 3 later, if convenient. It won't be high on the priority list though, being as they're aux lights. The switch side of the relay is fused in addition to the CB on the load side. I used 12 AWG wire on the load side from the battery to the lights. The run from the bat to the CB is about a foot. I think it's a solid install. My biggest concern is the spade terminals on the relay. Don't like using slip-on lugs on a 30 amp circuit.
 
Thanks for your persistence, Scott. I've edited my initial post to recommend a type 2 or 3 CB, instead of type 1. I still believe using a CB is adequate protection. I may switch to the type 2 or 3 later, if convenient. It won't be high on the priority list though, being as they're aux lights. The switch side of the relay is fused in addition to the CB on the load side. I used 12 AWG wire on the load side from the battery to the lights. The run from the bat to the CB is about a foot. I think it's a solid install. My biggest concern is the spade terminals on the relay. Don't like using slip-on lugs on a 30 amp circuit.
Tom, I'm persistent on items I have 30 years of btdt. I routinely install euro light conversions and aux lighting into Audis as part of my job, and have several dozen relay installs of btdt. To be clear in my Scenario above, it's not the run from the batt to the CB that's the problem, it's the run from the CB/Fuse to the Relay that shorts. The fuse protection should be close to the battery, but IME, the standard 4pin relay should be in the cabin or at least at the firewall for maximum weather isolation/protection. Hence, that battery feed circuit needs to be protected and isolated. FYI, I don't routinely fuse relay 'triggers', as I always tap a fused source for 12v relay-trigger, which means that circuit is already fuse protected by definition.

Your concerns on spades and relays is valid, and can be eliminated by using a relay mounting block (i.e. Hella 87123) with double crimp connectors with barb (hella 87272 or 87269) = solid crimp + solid clip-in mounting.. Here is my 92 Audi v8 Quattro with eurolight conversion - relay harness I built with a double relay block installed (left side relay controls low beams, right side relay controls high beams)
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It is mounted near the firewall, several feet from the battery feed and respective ATC fuses. The barbed double crimp connector inserts lock firmly into the relay block like any factory installed relay, allowing easy replacement of a faulty relay
picture.php


I have run this actual setup for 6 years of ownership, and my previous install of this exact setup on my old Audi wagon is going on 15 years without failure or service.

Every euro/aux light install harness I design and install uses a standard ATC fuse on the battery feed side, either mounted in a weatherproof harness or in an aux fuse block. A type 3 manual reset CB can be used in place of the ATC fuse, but I see no real advantages in doing so. The key to installing any 12v high amp circuit, is understand the risks of installing one. The ATC fuse calling that circuit dead in case of failure sounds just right to me.

Cheers, HTH, and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged - Hella Rallye 2000
 
Thank you Scott for your excellent and thorough explanation of best protection practices for lighting circuits.
 

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