What did I Do Wrong? My Bets the Fish Scale

[landtank]

Why are we so against following the friggin FSM on this???

Because it doesn't always work. Quite frankly it's a bull**** proceedure. Mechanical adjustments like backlash and preload should be done clean and dry and then add lubricant later once dialed in. This can't be done for the bearings and differences in grease, ambient temps, quality of packing and such make it hit or miss at best.

I question some of the people who DON'T have a problem with this proceedure. I've had nothing but problems with this proceedure but quite easily did my own HG job. Are the people with marginal mechanical ability who can get this to work able to recognise if the bearings are seated properly while driving? I don't know, but this has crossed my mind.

 

[tarbe]

Are the people with marginal mechanical ability who can get this to work able to recognise if the bearings are seated properly while driving? I don't know, but this has crossed my mind.

 

[Tools R Us]

...Such as my first time, when I stupidly forgot to bend the star tab washer on the PS...and the bearing loosened after a few thousand miles

The star washer is only there as a safety net. If the wheel bearings are properly setup and The nuts are properly torqued they will never come loose, unless a bearing goes bad.

 

[Tools R Us]

...I never did this "tighten up real tight"...

That's a critical part of a good bearing setup, it properly seats the rollers in the races and pushes out excess grease so that it doesn't affect the final preload adjustment. This page is for semis, so the torque numbers are high and they are oil bath, so they are play adjusted, ours are preload adjusted but other than that the procedure is the same.

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/tip5.asp

It's also critical that the hub is turning at all times when the adjuster nut is being tightened, this is one of the reasons I prefer to do it with the wheel on. The wheel works as a flywheel, making it easier to spin and the leverage of the wheel makes it easier to feel play in the bearings and when preload starts. Failure to properly seat the rollers is probably a big cause of the "my wheel bearings loosened up" complaints.

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/tip6.asp

...Realize that using an impact wrench on that first nut could put the torque on by as much or more over (if your impact wrench is like mine - up to 450lbs with steps starting at 80, 160, etc you could also be 200% or more over ) I realize you promptly loosen this nut but still with two or three times over the first torque you might squeeze out too much grease or mar the bearings or mar the races! Why do that?...

I didn't see anyone saying to put "450lbs" or even 80 on the bearings? But they are very hard and would probably take it without damage. As far as "mar the bearings or mar the races!" goes, again, bearings are incredibly hard and you will strip the nut long before causing any "mars". In bearing terms it's called brinelling, a series of dents in the races spaced the same as the rollers. About the only place you are likely to see it in a LC is the trunion bearings.

...(folks, pullleeeaaassseee dont expect that old corroded stinky fish scale you used on all your assorted fishing trips to work well)...

What difference dose it make if its stinky or old? If it weighs a gallon of water at 8.3 lbs, it will show 8.3 lbs of preload just as accurately?

 

[turbocruiser]

That's a critical part of a good bearing setup, it properly seats the rollers in the races and pushes out excess grease so that it doesn't affect the final preload adjustment. This page is for semis, so the torque numbers are high and they are oil bath, so they are play adjusted, ours are preload adjusted but other than that the procedure is the same.

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/tip5.asp

It's also critical that the hub is turning at all times when the adjuster nut is being tightened, this is one of the reasons I prefer to do it with the wheel on. The wheel works as a flywheel, making it easier to spin and the leverage of the wheel makes it easier to feel play in the bearings and when preload starts. Failure to properly seat the rollers is probably a big cause of the "my wheel bearings loosened up" complaints.

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/tip6.asp



I didn't see anyone saying to put "450lbs" or even 80 on the bearings? But they are very hard and would probably take it without damage. As far as "mar the bearings or mar the races!" goes, again, bearings are incredibly hard and you will strip the nut long before causing any "mars". In bearing terms it's called brinelling, a series of dents in the races spaced the same as the rollers. About the only place you are likely to see it in a LC is the trunion bearings.



What difference dose it make if its stinky or old? If it weighs a gallon of water at 8.3 lbs, it will show 8.3 lbs of preload just as accurately?

TRU, yer takin alota liberty with my post.

When I stated I did not do this "tighten up real tight" stuff, I meant, and in fact I stated several times, that I used the FSM recommendations not something tighter or looser. Yer makin it sound like I don't tighten at all when in fact I simply tighten exactly as the FSM states.

Yer taking those two links alittle outta context as well I might add. As you stated they refer to semis so that 200lbs is prolly way way way higher than ours. If I had to venture a guess I would have to venture around, hmmm, 43 ft-lbs for our bearings!

The links clearly suggest strictly following the specs for backing off the nuts after the first torque which is what I've recommended as well cause its was the FSM recommends. One quote from one of those links: """WARNING: Failure to back off the inner nut as described may cause the bearing to run hot and be damaged. If this happens during operation, the wheel also may lock or come off, causing a risk of serious bodily harm.""" Also with all due respect, and thatsalota respect for LT, I think this sorta proves the ten pound theory false and as I stated in my post while the ten pounds prolly totally prevents loose bearings, I'm wondering if it also causes tight bearings. Also, as I stated in my post, I prefer just right bearings.

Who cares what the bearings "could probably take" as you say. Sure you know your impact wrench, all I'm sayin is as much as I use my wrench, I don't know it thaaattt well, and further, I don't wan't anyone who thinks they know their impact wrench thaaattt well tightening my nuts that way! I think the 43 ftlbs, 43 ftlbs, loose, 48 inlbs is the way to go. It is not hard to do it that way, it works well and in my case remarkably consistently, so why avoid it is alls I'm sayin. I'm also sayin that I have yet to hear any very valid reason for avoiding the FSM procedure; if people are having problems following that method, as I've stated all along, I think it has to do with their scale much more than it does the FSM's recommended procedure.

Anyways, I'm not at all offended by anyone's arguements here cause I feel that no one is arguing against me: they're arguing against MR. T and his recommended procedures!!!

 

[medtro]

I really respect LT, but again, 10lbs is way too tight IMHO.

120 in-lbs vs. the 48 in-lbs called for!!!

Why are we so against following the friggin FSM on this???

18 ft-lb from a 85 Toyota 4Runner FSM.

 

[Tools R Us]

TRU, yer takin alota liberty with my post.

I did and sorry for the offense, I wasn't trying to pick on you, but your post had the issues in it that I wanted to address, again sorry. Here comes more "liberties".

Who cares what the bearings "could probably take" as you say. Sure you know your impact wrench, all I'm sayin is as much as I use my wrench, I don't know it thaaattt well, and further, I don't wan't anyone who thinks they know their impact wrench thaaattt well tightening my nuts that way!

The only place I use an impact wrench is cinching down the outside lock nut, it works well for me, do what works for you.

I think the 43 ftlbs, 43 ftlbs, loose, 48 inlbs is the way to go. It is not hard to do it that way, it works well and in my case remarkably consistently, so why avoid it is alls I'm sayin. I'm also sayin that I have yet to hear any very valid reason for avoiding the FSM procedure; if people are having problems following that method, as I've stated all along, I think it has to do with their scale much more than it does the FSM's recommended procedure.

Sounds great and it's excellent that you have had great results! I can't see why you would want to change what works for you?

In my years as an import mechanic, followed by years in automotive tool sales I have been in many shops and can't remember ever seeing a tech setting bearing preload with a fish scale? I know I never sold one and sold a bunch if Toyota hub sockets. I can see where it could be problematic for some, trying to pull evenly at 90 degrees and getting an accurate reading on a moving scale. My point is, there is more than one way to get the job done properly, if someone (not you) is having problems with the FSM procedure pick a procedure that's more intuitive for them.

Anyways, I'm not at all offended by anyone's arguements here cause I feel that no one is arguing against me: they're arguing against MR. T and his recommended procedures!!! :flipoff2

Once again sorry to offend your defense of FSM recommended procedures. By the way, where did you find any of this in the FSM recommended procedures; Safari Turbo, Safari Intercooler, HKS Turbo Timer, 3" Exhaust, OME HD 2.5" Suspension, DBA Slotted & Drilled Rotors? They must of left that part out of mine?

 

[Tools R Us]

Yer taking those two links alittle outta context as well I might add. As you stated they refer to semis so that 200lbs is prolly way way way higher than ours. If I had to venture a guess I would have to venture around, hmmm, 43 ft-lbs for our bearings!

I mentioned that the torque values were for semis, so yes 43 ft-lbs would be the correct number. The point of the link is the procedure, making sure that the rollers are properly seated, if they are not it doesn't matter what preload technique you use, after a short drive they will seat and you will have loose bearings without the nuts moving.

I don't wan't anyone who thinks they know their impact wrench thaaattt well tightening my nuts that way!

I wasn't offering to tighten your nuts for you! I have run way more impacts than I care to count on an impact dyno and will bet that with an IR-231, I can hit within 2 ft-lb of 50 on it repeatedly many more times in a row than your willing to stand around and watch! But, like I said it is not for everyone, use the tools your comfortable with.

 

[tarbe]

The star washer is only there as a safety net. If the wheel bearings are properly setup and The nuts are properly torqued they will never come loose, unless a bearing goes bad.

No, it is more than that.

It also isolates the inner nut from the torque applied to the outer nut, to keep the pre-load from increasing when you tighten that outer nut. Without the star washer, you could not "lock" the pre-load like we do, without sending it sky high.

 

[MH_Stevens]

No heating on test run tightening at 10lb and no fish scale as suggested. Drove normal. I'll check for coming loose in a few more miles. Thanks everyone.

Michael

 

[skarland]

My problem is too tight for the adjusting nut on the front preload

When I did the front preload for the wheel bearing, I mistakely forgot to loose the adjusting nut to 48 in-lb after first tighten it to 43 ft-lb, then loose, then 43 ft-lb. That is to say I left the ajdusting nut to be 43 ft-lb instead of 48 in-lb. Will this cause any possible trouble? I think it might cause some overheat because it's too tight. Maybe cause some brake trouble? I haven't check the freeplay yet. Just seems drive normal after several hundred miles.

 

[powderpig]

The cyclic nature of work on vechicles, HG thread, Radiators, Wheel bearings.
Some thoughts for you guys on this. First, that most of our (even mine) spindles have wear marks where the outer bearing has spun at one time or anther. This will lead to the wheel bearing loosening up. Why, because the inner race will spin unless the washer that is on the inside of the first nut puts enough pressure on the race to hold it in spot. So the claw washer should never have a groove on it, if it does, it should be discarded or at least turned around so the flat is against the bearings inner race. Ideally the spindle needs to be replaced(but I am cheap at times and should not be). So Land tanks method will do the job better as it is not dependent on the type of grease and temp and variation in the spindle being messed up. Yep I gave up on Mr. T reccommendations of a fish scale well over 15 years ago. I have written about this in the past on Mud. I have even described how I do this procedure a couple of times.
New bearings and races need to be retightened after a time period, this allow the bearing and races to wear a bit(it will happen). I usually like to retighten new stuf around 1k miles. The more agressive and bigger a tire the more you need to reset the front bearing at sooner Maintaince internvals(15k to 20K for most mud terrians, swampers and such 10k). The washer is the key to alot of this, if the outers bearing inner race wears a little groove (that groove we all see), this allow the race to spin even more. The spindle wears even more. I would like to see a hardened version of the claw washer, this would help lots. I did check into having a local machine shop hardened the toyota ones or make me some and it was not cost effective at the time. Now with more people with more resources this may become a viable option for some one to do.
So back to methods, you need a method that shows how much force the washer is putting on the inner bearing. The fish scale in optium conditions will do this, and most of us are not in optium conditions. The Land tank torque method is better for most of us. Doubling the torque from 4 lbs to 10 lbs may be excive, but LT and others have shown it does not burn the bearings up. This was the chance they took doing the method they did, but there experment has worked well.
I also like seeing if the washer moves from side to side with a screw driver as you pry it back and forth. If it moves easy, it is not enough. If you can not move the washer, it may be too tight. 'This takes some practice and play to get the feel. But has served me since the 80's when I worked on diesel tractors (cummins wrench).
Any how just my thoughts from Tellico NC as I travel with the FJ Trail Team. Good luck, later robbie

 

[Rich]

When I did the front preload for the wheel bearing, I mistakely forgot to loose the adjusting nut to 48 in-lb after first tighten it to 43 ft-lb, then loose, then 43 ft-lb. That is to say I left the ajdusting nut to be 43 ft-lb instead of 48 in-lb. Will this cause any possible trouble? ...

Leaving it that way I would expect to result in bearing seizure with possible loss of wheel while underway.

 

[semlin]

skarland do not drive your truck like that!!! redo the preload immediately. At a minimum you will toast your bearings and boil your grease in short order.



as for the overall debate. I have only ever done this on 80s but i have done it multiple times on multiple 80s with new and used bearings. I have consistently found that new bearings in new grease give artificially high preload results on the fishscale leading you to set the preload too loose once they break in. I have also found that you use the bottom end of the fishscale range at your peril even on used broken in bearings. You end up adjusting them again in a few eeks . i still don't trust my "feel" for this but using the fishscale method when I reset bearings a second time I go for the highest possible fishscale weight in the fsm. i agree with others here that the inch pound rating in the FSM is unreliable. That is why you check it with a fishscale which is also unreliable.

 

[ed97fzj80]

Heck, the bearings don't even have to be new. If it's about 60* F when you pack the bearings, good luck getting a good set with a "correct" preload reading. I'm STILL fighting the left wheel, resettting about monthly, six months after the axle job. I'm going to have to give in and buy another torque wrench -- one that starts at five or ten -- to get this handled. The fish scale ain't working.

 

[landtank]

Skarland, at 48 ftlbs I'd say that there is no question that it is overtight. I'd go back in and bring it down. I would also not get too worked up about having driven on them either, I'm sure the bearings are fine.

These bearings aren't as sensitive as most here will make you think. During my experimental stage I was running them with 20ftlbs of torque on that nut at highway speeds of 85mph and for 100s of miles at a time and they are still on the truck today. And at the repack the old grease looked just the same then as it does now with the nuts torqued to 10.

 

[turbocruiser]

These bearings aren't as sensitive as most here will make you think. During my experimental stage I was running them with 20ftlbs of torque on that nut at highway speeds of 85mph and for 100s of miles at a time and they are still on the truck today. And at the repack the old grease looked just the same then as it does now with the nuts torqued to 10.

Rick as an added question, and following from the masta's post, have you ever seen any signs of slippage on either the spindle or on the lock washer? I'm more and more interested in your method. Also are you saying that after running the rig at 85 mph for 100's of miles at a time that the hub was STILL cool to the touch or at least less than hot? Or are you simply saying that the bearings and races show no signs of distress upon repack? Have you felt the hub after an extended run over 85mph?

How do you think your method will work with speeds over 100mph and situations similar to rally racing cruiser style? That's the envelope where i'm worrying if my bearings are too tight in. Yes, I'm serious. Thanks.

Ohh, almost forgot another, what grease are you using in your bearings?

 

[landtank]

I've noticed a little wear on the rear spindles on the inner bearing but nothing you wouldn't expect. I've never touched my hubs after a long run as I've never been concerned about how I set up my bearings.

After 50k miles and doing the repack the grease that is still in the hug cavity still looks like new or close to it.

I use a Dino high temp bearing grease, blue in color and would never consider synthetic for this application.

For 6 years my truck was my work transportation vehicle and would run it hard at 85 mph for hours and hours, sometimes 6 hours straight and only stopping for gas. Those where typically Boston to Buffalo runs.

I'd have to pull the hub apart to really insect it for any other signs of wear as I haven't taken the time to look closely at parts.

 

[skarland]

Fainted under Texas hot sun

This afternoon, I redo the preload by loosing the adjusting nut be 4 ft-lbs. Then tighten the outer lock nut to be 43 ft-lbs. I felt the the wheel is easier to move now. I also checked that there is no freeplay on the wheel. I thought it's a half hour job. So I did the work on my driveway under the hot Texas summer sun. I sweated a lot and fainted finally. My wife got a little bit confused and upset. "You want your truck or your life?" in Chinese. I said "Both. If I did not do it, it's dangerous to drive like that". You know I ruined her memorial weekend last week by doing the front axle work.
Thanks guys for all your suggestions.

 

[semlin]

wow, that is dedication to the cause skarland but you must be careful to introduce your wife to cruiser widow status slowly. at first you must not wrench on holiday weekends. also, do not make cruiser widow status literally true by working too long in the hot texas sun!!