Warn M8000 field winding copper bar repair

[alia176]

Fellas,

I want to know if anyone has repaired this before. Seems like the nut on the stud was overtightented which caused the stud to rotate, thereby, separating itself from the tiny copper bar. The thread on the stud is fubar so I can see what might happened in the past.

I'm thinking I can braze using the copper bus bar from an old solenoid pack I got laying around. I tried to remove the actual field winding from the motor housing by using a torqx bit but she didn't budge and i didn't want to force it.

If anyone has ideas, let me have them pls! I think a penny has nickel in it so it's not pure copper, if I'm not mistaken. Wonder if my local Ace hardware has copper that I can melt and use it for this patch job?

I know that I can replace the whole motor from Amazon for $185 but what's the fun in that?

 

[gnob]

Do you have any electric motor repair places nearby? Starter /alternator repair?

 

[alia176]

Do you have any electric motor repair places nearby? Starter /alternator repair?

Yes, I've gone this route already. Electric motor says no problem after i described to him the issue over the phone. He says this will take couple of hours at $90/hour.

Starter motor says "negatory, we don't braze and we're coupla monkeys who can't think out of the box." Basically, if it doesn't involve bearings, brushes or soldering, we are out.

 

[demoj]

Hmm.... yeah pennies are like 90% zinc. I will think about this but you definitely won't be able to "melt-in" raw copper.

What do you think the your max operational temperature is?

It appears If you attempt to solder a piece on you may also run the risk of undoing the solder joint that holds the whole tab to the coil-see pic.

I would recommend fabricating another tab out of equal thickness copper, heat and remove the wrecked one, then solder new back in place- you may not even need more solder. If you heat the coil side more than the tab side most of the solder should flow to the hotter side thus sweating it in place. Pickle, flux and thne heat from the tab side and it should flow from the coil side back to the tab. I think the biggest concern is not burning the coil or anything else. Perhaps apply an aero-gel and shield. I imagine it is probably a very low temp solder, that's a guess but it does look more cloudy than bright silver.
I use this from Rio Grande as a heat barrier.
Rio Chil Gel with Syringe Applicator

Best,
J

 

[george_tlc]

The tab is spot welded to the wire, there's no solder there... I wouldn't recommend solder in this case. With high current flowing it'll get hot and likely melt the solder...

cheers,
george.

 

[demoj]

The tab is spot welded to the wire, there's no solder there... I wouldn't recommend solder in this case. With high current flowing it'll get hot and likely melt the solder...

cheers,
george.

There is a clear silver lining around the tab and the stub to the coil, that certainly indicates solder. Without the piece in front of me it is difficult to tell. I also don't think you can spot weld copper, I've done it very small scale to tack for soldering, but I'm not certain you can even TIG copper (after the Googs..apparently you need helium and super high amps???!). I also do not see any tell-tail spot weld plunge deformation/electro-scorch on the surfaces.
Electrical or metal work solder is about 370f-840f.
extra-easy solder =1270f.
hard solder = 1370f.
copper melts at 1984f.
For a winch... that would be ridiculously high for an operational temperature.

 

[george_tlc]

Not soldered in Alia's picture. That tab is spot welded. Solder is NOT something you use to mechanically hold things together - especially high vibration.

That winding wire is clearly spot welded to the tab - that is the correct way to do the connection for this type of device.

And yes, with the correct process you can spot weld copper to copper or even to other metals.

cheers,
george.

 

[demoj]

Not soldered in Alia's picture. That tab is spot welded. Solder is NOT something you use to mechanically hold things together - especially high vibration.

That winding wire is clearly spot welded to the tab - that is the correct way to do the connection for this type of device.

And yes, with the correct process you can spot weld copper to copper or even to other metals.

cheers,
george.

Negative.... this is wrong.

There is no evidence of spot "welding" as welding is homogeneous (using the same material to flow/fuse into another same material-electrically or otherwise) meaning it would be the same color, and will not exhibit a silver colored flash around the joint.
Solder, is a lower temp, non-homogeneous alloy (mix of metals-silver,tin,lead etc.) process to join those parent metals in a way that they "recognize" each other and indicated by a silver (or other/braze) color differentiation around the joint.
If you disagree, please explain the large silver globule around the joint... in addition to the Roswell incident and perhaps the Kennedy assassination....
Yes, you can weld non-homogenous materials, if you have access to Sandia labs. I doubt Warn does for this application...

I'll put money on it... I do it for a living.

 

[george_tlc]

If Alia takes a few more pictures I may consider it's been brazed etc. Until then I will disagree about soldering since it is not a structurally strong way of joining things together, especially in high vibration areas.

Please keep the sarcasm to yourself.

cheers,
george.

 

[george_tlc]

e.g. Resistance Spot Welding Applications | AMADA WELD TECH

examples of welding copper to copper and tabs to copper conductors etc etc.

cheers,
george.

 

[demoj]

If Alia takes a few more pictures I may consider it's been brazed etc. Until then I will disagree about soldering since it is not a structurally strong way of joining things together, especially in high vibration areas.

Please keep the sarcasm to yourself.

cheers,
george.

I'll stop being sarcastic when you stop being a troll- keep it in California. Further more, Ali doesn't have to do anything to make you feel better about your misconceptions. Solder's hold up to 36000 psi and it's not like bike frames are not- wait.... I am done educating you. Have fun being you.

 

[george_tlc]

Wow, must have struck a tender spot. Most of the time on this forum we try to help/educate others. Name calling is somewhat unusual here.

Bike frames soldered, learn something new every day. I think that statement in of itself summarizes your general knowledge of soldering. I only have a little experience with soldering stuff.

Ali can certainly do what he wants, maybe he'll share a beer with me on a future trip to the bay area.

cheers,
george.

 

[alia176]

All done and fully operational. Thanks for the education and assistance.

One thing I messed up was not to remove the insulating spacers that are on the stud we were brazing on. The extreme heat burned up the insulators and caused a direct short to the housing.

Quick check revealed that I had a good ohm reading between F1 & F2, a short (normal) between A1 & motor housing. Unfortunately, I also had a short between F2 & motor housing due to the burnt up insulation. I cobbled up some insulators by cutting up a inner wheel well liner from the 4runner (already torn up)

I tell you one thing though about Warn winches from this era, they sound like bunch of marbles rolling around during motor operation. My M10,000 has the same awful sound. Modern 9.5XP sounds so butter smooth compared to this vintage winches!

Anyway, hopefully this fix will hold but won't know until I load it up which i'm hoping to do under controlled circumstances at the house.

Observation: while running the empty winch backwards and forwards, I felt a warm spot on the empty drum, about 3" inward from the left (refer to the least pic). That puzzled me a tad.