Does anyone have any experience with Viper front bumpers that they’d be willing to share? Looking for pros and cons. Thanks in advance.
Viper front bumper (1 Viewer)
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Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
I’d stay away from it, as well as any other bumper that only mounts to the front frame horn bolts.
It’s been proven that the front of the 200 frame cannot handle the weight of a steel bumper when it not supported in other areas along the frame. Odinskind is dealing with significant frame cracks, as many do who drive on anything other that smooth pavement with these inferior bumpers.
It’s been proven that the front of the 200 frame cannot handle the weight of a steel bumper when it not supported in other areas along the frame. Odinskind is dealing with significant frame cracks, as many do who drive on anything other that smooth pavement with these inferior bumpers.
This is Odinskind's thread on the issue
Cracked weld need advice
Oakleyguy posted a video of a 200 with an ARB on corrugated roads and even that bumper which also uses a threaded rod through the frame looks like it flexes like mad.
Toyota Australia did a recall on 200s which had the factory Toyota bull bar (which we can't get) as they had apparently seen the same issue. I believe their answer was to re-weld the seam. Most of the major manufacturers (ARB, TJM, Ironman) have a metal bar with tapped threads which slides into the frame and then a threaded rod which sticks out through the front mounting plate. From the video it seems like with all the flex and vibration the bar would get that rod wouldn't do much other than offer a temporary reprieve if the weld failed. I have seen a video of someone who had an Ironman bar that also cracked the frame at that spot, though his winch bar also had a crack so I have to suspect something was loose and bouncing around.
Personally I'd have a competent shop reinforce the welds on that mounting plate and gusset it regardless. In fact that's what I'm having done.
Cracked weld need advice
Oakleyguy posted a video of a 200 with an ARB on corrugated roads and even that bumper which also uses a threaded rod through the frame looks like it flexes like mad.
Toyota Australia did a recall on 200s which had the factory Toyota bull bar (which we can't get) as they had apparently seen the same issue. I believe their answer was to re-weld the seam. Most of the major manufacturers (ARB, TJM, Ironman) have a metal bar with tapped threads which slides into the frame and then a threaded rod which sticks out through the front mounting plate. From the video it seems like with all the flex and vibration the bar would get that rod wouldn't do much other than offer a temporary reprieve if the weld failed. I have seen a video of someone who had an Ironman bar that also cracked the frame at that spot, though his winch bar also had a crack so I have to suspect something was loose and bouncing around.
Personally I'd have a competent shop reinforce the welds on that mounting plate and gusset it regardless. In fact that's what I'm having done.
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Thanks guys, that is great advice and I’m glad I asked.
I’m not superstitious, but I just sold me Jeep, and every 200 (6+) I’ve been watching has either sold in the last three days or has something concerning about it. Almost as if the good Lord is telling me to look for something else.
Regardless, I’m thankful for the expertise on this forum.
I’m not superstitious, but I just sold me Jeep, and every 200 (6+) I’ve been watching has either sold in the last three days or has something concerning about it. Almost as if the good Lord is telling me to look for something else.
Regardless, I’m thankful for the expertise on this forum.
The lack of a threaded rod is probably my only concern with Jason's design. I know he didn't think it was necessary, particularly if the frame is gussetted in that area, but I'm paranoid - to me the goal of the rod is to pull the bar inward towards the frame so that the mounts can't flex. If I could source the clevis rod/nut that ARB/TJM/Ironman use I'd snag a pair as well.
I second the notion @linuxgod said.....patience. It's worth the wait. I looked for 3+ months, then found one at a dealer in Queens NYC. In all that time it was the only one that popped up anywhere on the eastern seaboard anywhere near my price point. Everything used at that point was still $50k+. HORRIBLE buying experience, total dirtbag dealer. I walked out on the dealer 4 separate occasions, 2 involving yelling and cursing (on both sides). Ended up paying $2k over what i had wanted. Wouldnt have been my 1st color pick either (gold), but now i even love that too. In the end, sooooo happy i stuck it out! So yeah, patience.
I winched many times with no gussetts and no mount cracking. There was a point when I was winching another 200 up/over a shelf and my front suspension was damn near on the bumpstops from being pulled down by the winch rope. Anecdotal, maybe.
Ultimately, just chopping the plates off altogether and welding on a thicker gauge plate would be the absolute best solution. In lieu of that, a set of quick gussets and/or putting a solid bead around the plate will most definitely suffice for nearly everyone on here. It's a quick job for any shop to do, especially if the bumper is already off.
Ultimately, just chopping the plates off altogether and welding on a thicker gauge plate would be the absolute best solution. In lieu of that, a set of quick gussets and/or putting a solid bead around the plate will most definitely suffice for nearly everyone on here. It's a quick job for any shop to do, especially if the bumper is already off.
@TonyP yep a solid bead and gussets is what ChiTown4x4 is going to do for me. Again I'm not sure the extra rod/bar is really necessary, I'm just a "do it once" kinda guy and really wouldn't want to ever have to disassemble and fix it, so it would've been a nice insurance policy.
From what I read about the Toyota bull bar, the cracking was due to bouncing around on rough Australian corrugated roads for thousands of kms. It doesn't sound like the strain of a winch would break it unless you were winching like that 8 hours a day every day for a year. Rather it's almost like microscopic flex and vibrations which eventually cause the metal fatigue. So yeah just gusseting would probably suffice (based on my completely unscientific understanding).
From what I read about the Toyota bull bar, the cracking was due to bouncing around on rough Australian corrugated roads for thousands of kms. It doesn't sound like the strain of a winch would break it unless you were winching like that 8 hours a day every day for a year. Rather it's almost like microscopic flex and vibrations which eventually cause the metal fatigue. So yeah just gusseting would probably suffice (based on my completely unscientific understanding).
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
That’s right, the cracking isn’t from static load from winching. Winching causes a much different stress than corregations.
Also @linuxgod, could you find the video of the 200 with an ARB that cracked the welds? Because the one I saw was before ARB incorporated the threaded bar.
Also, what I was trying to imply with mounting was to also have the bar tie into the lower tie down points under the radiator crossmember. That in itself will take a ton a stress off the frame horns.
I mean the frame horn plates are something like 1/16”. And people hang 200 pounds of bumper/winch on them. Mounting only to the 8 bolts that are attached to that thin little plate. Blows my mind. But you can get away with it in th US I guess. Since a 4x4 that drive itself to the trail will easily spend 95% of its time on smooth road.
Also @linuxgod, could you find the video of the 200 with an ARB that cracked the welds? Because the one I saw was before ARB incorporated the threaded bar.
Also, what I was trying to imply with mounting was to also have the bar tie into the lower tie down points under the radiator crossmember. That in itself will take a ton a stress off the frame horns.
I mean the frame horn plates are something like 1/16”. And people hang 200 pounds of bumper/winch on them. Mounting only to the 8 bolts that are attached to that thin little plate. Blows my mind. But you can get away with it in th US I guess. Since a 4x4 that drive itself to the trail will easily spend 95% of its time on smooth road.
Stay far away from VPR. The only bumpers I personally would put on my trucks are ARB, TJM, Slee or potentially Trail Tailor.
Nope I've only seen the video of the Ironman with the cracked weld, which didn't have a threaded insert. But it's unclear to me whether Ironman didn't include it or if the installer simply skipped it because it's apparently a PITA. Other than that the only issues I've officially heard of were Odinskind's cracks from his VPR and the Toyota Australia recall. I'm definitely not disagreeing that multiple mounting points are a good thing though.
I haven't seen the ARB, TJM, and Ironman mounting up close, just in some online install docs, so I don't know if they all tie into the lower tie down points as well.
Thinking about this more I may pick up a 1/2" threaded J hook and run the threads through the plate and bar mount and hook the frame where the ARB/TJM/IM insert goes. Along with the gussets it should help pull the mounting inward good-n-tight.
I have heard about this before and am looking at putting an ARB Bull bar and winch on my LC. The way I have been thinking about getting around the frame cracking issue was to either weld or bolt a piece of 3/16 stock about a foot long on the frame to help reinforce it. Has anyone tried this?
If you are using an ARB/TJM/Ironman I wouldn't bother. They all use a threaded rod that inserts into the frame, to help pull the bumper inward. At least one of them also uses the tow hook bolts as another mounting point, which is what you would be trying to accomplish anyway.
I suppose you could. But what if your winch takes a dump or you need to access a component behind the bumper? Do you want to take a cutoff wheel or plasma to your bumper just because of a loose wire?
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
Well outside of the whole "getting a winch in and out would be... interesting." Then there is the damaged bumpers issue, and being able to unbolt, and re-bolt a bumper on saves lots of work.
The really issue is not the aftermarket bumper to the frame horns. It's the crush indentations on the front 12" of frame. I wish I could yell that from a water tower. Anyway, modern trucks have levels of failure.
We WANT the plastic bumper cover to fail before the aluminum bumper. We want the aluminum bumper to fail before the frame crush points. We want the frame crush points to fail before the passenger compartment crushes.
And because of that fact, and only that fact, aftermarket winch bumpers need to continue allowing a crushing-in ability of a few inches to make their outside strength worth it. The point of any upgrade is to protect something that is more expensive and harder to replace. If I fall off the truck off a boulder, into a rock wall, an ARB will save the lights and fender (I've done it) and it saves the body, because it also has a bit a room away from lights and fenders for deflection. Because all these bumper wings will flex a little.
Then when I have a harder car crash, the ARB crush cans will fail, saving the frame (again... seen it first hand on my first Toyota).
So when you take out what Toyota put in, to fail, before the frame, a curved aluminum bumper, and replace it with a rock solid piece of 3/16" steel. What do you think is going to win? The aftermarket bumper with no crush cans, or the 1/16" frame metal? Yeah the frame losses, every time.
It's simple engineering. Also when I hear things like "I've always done it like this" from people, they just tell me they are too ignorant to understand that things change, and have no idea how to change with them. Like Viper bumpers. (but lets be honest, Viper knows they aren't building for off roaders).
So to the original question, why not weld? It should more be, "why not weld 1/4" plating to the factory frame, then make a 3/16" bumper so that the thing is easy to fix and not move the stress to the much more expensive frame when impact occurs."
I've seen this for the last 20 years I've built cars. From the Jeep guy that puts in a super strong U-joints only to now break the more expensive Dana 35. To the late 70s Domestics that put in a 454s and blow their tiny little 7.5" rear ends. We need to think about what's behind whatever we increase on strength.
Cars are like women, the best one's are also good on the inside. Sure you can have fun with one that only looks great on the outside, yeah, you get all excited to get inside them, not caring about the future, just the now... but both will leave you broke, starting over, and wishing you never would of in the first place.
