Vintage in TT? (1 Viewer)

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desertdude asked 'I am sure Tony can chime in on this with more detail. newsletter/magazine?'

I view Trails as our Premier color publication. It's more than a newsletter... but not really a magazine (magazine being something like People or Four Wheeler). Its our publication.

At the risk of potentially upsetting a few, I will note to everyone here that I have placed my full confidence in our Advertising Manager. I cannot ask this person to achieve goals we have set and then turn around and say 'No, not that one or this one'. I have also placed my full confidence in our Managing Editor. I cannot say create me a premier publication but do it this way. That is not the way I operate.

I am reading this thread and noting everyone's valid concerns and comments. I have also already provided my input about what actions should be taken by folks in this thread if they care to elevate the topic beyond this 'discussion' forum.

And of course, I'm looking forward to meeting Dan personally and checking out his 55.

Many thanks!

Tony
 
here is an interesting article on the subject of free speech : http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.03/no.law.html


and a short excerpt:

Reality check: free speech is not absolute



The First Amendment speaks in seemingly absolute terms: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech or of the press." This has never meant, however, that people can say whatever they want wherever they want. Freedom of speech does not mean speech totally uninhibited by any legal restraint. It has always been true that some forms of speech can be outlawed or penalized - and many have been. Common examples include fraudulent advertising, child pornography, obscenity, "fighting words," help-wanted ads that discriminate on the basis of race, words used in a criminal transaction ("I'll kill your husband for US$10,000"), unkept promises, unlicensed broadcasts, libel, speech that infringes a copyright, and unauthorized disclosure of data used to make atomic weapons.

Correctly interpreted, the First Amendment does not prohibit all restrictions on speech. It doesn't prohibit private restrictions at all. Our constitution is a series of constraints on government, not on individuals or even powerful corporations. It is not a violation of the First Amendment for the Microsoft Network, if it so desired, to forbid postings that criticize Bill Gates. Microsoft is not the government, at least not yet. Similarly, CompuServe's censorship of sex newsgroups may offend freedom lovers but does not violate the First Amendment.

The amendment prohibits government restrictions on "the freedom of speech," not on all speech, and it's a mistake to argue that no speech can be restricted. In every case, the question is whether the particular "speech" is within the "freedom" comprehended by the amendment
 
I know i am a NEW TLCA member..but..why dont we just vote on it? Is that possible?..an online vote here? or somewhere similar??

just a thought..
joe m

[glow=red,2,300]TLCA MEMBER SINCE DECEMBER 2003!!!!![/glow]
 
Well, this seems to be the question; Should someone with bad/poor/unlawful business ethics allowed to be able to advertise in the TT ?

When it boils down to an unemotional question put to the TLCA board I would think the answer would be obvious. The issue is what is unethical, what is not and who decides...
 
If it was unlawful, he'd have been sued and the Better Business Bureau would have him on file...complaints should be filed by wronged parties. Has anyone searched his federal record for information regarding formal complaints? He said/she said and opinion only goes so far...

"banning together" to place an ad of our own warning people with regards to our interpretation of his business practices puts those placing the ad in danger of being sued for slander.
 
I agree with you, Woody, on the "banding together" issue. I think that might be very shakey ground, and regardless of who ultimately lost, there would probably be grounds for a slander suit.

However, I am not so certain that if he hasn't been dinged for false advertising yet, that that guarantees what he is doing is legal. He operates out of one state, advertising cars he hasn't seen that are often in other states, and would probably claim he had bad information from the PO if someone pointed out discrepancies. He also counts on people like Dan, who, after travelling long distances to get their prize, are disinclined to walk away because it isn't just as claimed. Then, people are also disinclined to admit they were fooled. I was once swindled by someone on EBay, and I did everything I could to report the fraud and get the authorities involved. You know what? Nothing came of it. If the authorities aren't interested, and it is across state lines, you are SOL. And the defrauders know it.

But, as anyone can see from the photos of at least some of the Vintage "Rust-free" trucks that they are a far cry from "Rust-Free".
 
"Intent" can be very difficult to prove in a criminal court and State Attorney offices' generally advise civil action in something like this unless it affects a large number of victims. A civil action would not appear on any kind of criminal history and the ruling is usually sealed from public record as part of the settlement.

As Dave pointed out, many buyers will take their lumps and chalk it up to a life lesson as Dan has and I once even attempted to file a complaint with the BBB and got absolutely nowhere and eventually gave up.

The point is that it cost $$$ to produce a periodical and the money earned from advertising dollars helps offset this cost. I would imagine of all the posts here only one or two are actual cases and not heresay, and chasing away sales income on heresay is hard to do when you're trying to produce a product with such a limited market. I believe those directly affected could, legally purchase an ad or write an article with their experiences and be within their rights. However, I doubt the TLCA board would like to get into a finger pointing war within it's pages. Unfortunately, once again the victims have few, affordable legal avenues and that's what keeps guys like Mushro in business. Just my .02 cts.
 
Heresay? maybe for actually buying one of those trucks, but anyone with knowledge of these trucks or automotive knowledge in general can look at the ads and tell it's not truthful. In fact, it's downright shameful. unfortunately, there are a lot of people without that knowledge and we are contributing to the problem rather than be a solution. i can see Tony's point about supporting the staff. it's what he needs to do. Ask the staff to look at this discussion and ask them what should be done. if they choose ad dollars over the right thing to do, then I will have to believe that the TLCA does not want us to support their advertisers because they don't care what their advertisers stand for.

Butch said that if i'm willing to pull my support of the TLCA because of this issue then i must have other issues with the TLCA. That's not true. The Toyota Trails is the voice of the TLCA that most of us see. Before Woody added this forum and Tony started speaking to us on it, it was the only voice of the TLCA that most of the membership could hear. I want to be proud of the stickers on my trucks. I want the TLCA to stand for the love of these vehicles that we all seem to share, the proper way to use them in the manner for which they were built, and growing the appreciation of these vehicles by growing an educated membership.
The TLCA should not stand for bilking the uninformed. it should stand for informing them.
 
Yep, I hope you are at least showing this to your editors, Tony, so they can take it all into consideration.
 
Gumby-I was looking at the legal perspective of the issue (with my limited knowledge), morally I agree with you 100%. The only case I know of is Dan's and to my knowledge he accepted the truck on delivery and never took any legal action against greg. He explained his reasons and I think we all understood them. Let me be clear, I do NOT think Vintage should be in Trails for your stated reasons, but I think you have to consider Tony's position too. Are all of Greg's deals bad, I don't know. I bet you could line up just as many people with real life experiences with JT's, Downey, CCOT or any of the other vendors who advertise here. So then what, we s*** can all advertisers when a flaming thread is posted with multiple hits? What's the difference between taking money and not delivering parts or complete sets of parts and selling a truck not as advertised? In my eyes not much, it's still wrong.

The point is, breaking a sales contract (I assume TLCA uses one) with an advertising client is not all that easy, and you have to consider our litigation happy world too. I don't have any answers, just trying to shine some light on all aspects of this issue.
 
I'm not yet a TLCA member but what my suggestion would be is for those who have a complaint against this advertiser to provide TLCA with the appropriate documentation, ie: advertised contition/options etc. vs. actual delivered conditions/options in the form of photos etc. and let the advertiser prove that he has either a) satisfied the customer (Dan would fall into the "satisfied" category due to his glowing testimonial, sorry Dan), or b) refunded the purchase. If an advertiser gets above a certain level of unsatisfied customers (TLCA needs to decide that level) who are able to PROVE that they have tried but were unable to acheive satisfaction then drop the advertiser until they clean up their act.

I have also had unpleasant Ebay experiences but I did not post ANY feedback until the time limits had nearly elapsed at which time I contacted the proper people with proper documentation and had my problem resolved and the seller had, by that time, some rather unflattering feedback! When the problem was resolved the I posted comments to that regard.

p.s. I've seen some of his ads and they seem "too good to be true" so I have not persued based on the axiom "if it's too good to be true then it's likely not true"!

My $0.02
 
Love being the dumb-ass poster child for the dupped. There is no doubt I was a "satisfied customer" before I saw the vehicle. There was a 3 month delay from the time I bought the truck to the time I took possession of it. I was not so satisfied when I saw it in real life. Greg was easy to work with, he made it easy and he told me all the right things. He knew which buttons to push and why not, he was set to make a killing off the deal.

Indeed this was an expensive lesson to learn and never again will I purchase a vehicle sight unseen for a premium price. Vintage's margins depends upon this set-up. He should not in anyway represent the TLCA. His only purpose for advertising in TT is to find trucks to turn. No one who reads TT and is in the "know" would pay his prices. He also advertises in Off Road and JP, that is where he finds his buyers.

You can get into the legal implications, dollar and cents issues but it ultimately comes down to moral issue. When his contract is up, politely refuse to renew it. How many sellers are you pushing away by having a known dirt-bag in your publication?
 
Dan, I agree with you on not renewing the contract but sometimes it just isn't that easy. There are cases on file of people who have refused work based on moral or other considerations and they have been taken to court and lost! I comes down to the fact that if he has the cash he gets the space unless there is good reason, ie: the space is taken by others already or we don't accept ads to buy or sell vehicles, and you had better be able to prove it!
Unfortunately that's where the legal system has taken us!
 
so it gets down to TTrails printing something to the effect "Advertising in the TT is not a direct endorsement of the TLCA"

...or could something like this be set-up: A kind of "AD membership"
Premium advertising membership cost and a Standard advertising membership cost set-up, in other words more cost for those advertisers that offer little back to the subscribers, and less cost to those who offer something back to the subscribers. Make it pure and legal policy of the Mag
 
Heres to whoever owns MARLIN CRAWLERS!!! Don't know if it was in response to this thread but my next box is coming from you! Hope to see you in TT as well....if it ever comes:)
 
that would be Marlin C. and I'll butcher his last name if I tried.

I must have missed something, but what did he do? (off line is OK if you want)

John H

[quote author=drohweder link=board=10;threadid=7707;start=msg89116#msg89116 date=1073946301]
Heres to whoever owns MARLIN CRAWLERS!!! Don't know if it was in response to this thread but my next box is coming from you! Hope to see you in TT as well....if it ever comes:)
[/quote]
 
John,
During the entire discussion on this topic I noticed that there were no paid advertisers on this site (TLCA and Blue Ribbon Coal. are scrolled as a "service" to the community). Guess I just somehow associate this website with TLCA (I know its not formally linked but....) I'm going to look back in my old TTs (all three) and see if Marlin Crawlers advertised. I hope to see people stepping up to the plate and advertising cruiser worthy product in a cruiser worthy mag (unlike Vintage offroad).

Maybe I am off base, perhaps Marlin dude never read this thread? Perhaps I am just naive.
 
Marlin Crawler had a full inside back cover advertisement in the Jan/Feb issue...I likewise was very pleased to see their ad....Toyota has the fullpage back cover as well...another GREAT supporter for TLCA, one that's been long coming.

Marlin Crawler is also the first paid advertising supporter of ih8mud.com, and likely not the last. <wink>

ih8mud.com is not formally TLCA linked, but I've personally been a member since 1990 (member #1548) and as of now, ih8mud.com (the business) has an associate membership with TLCA. The board sections for TLCA are provided as a free service to TLCA.

I should go thru and change the colors for this section to match their website....hhhhmmmm...sounds lke a good lunchtime project....
 
[quote author=drohweder link=board=10;threadid=7707;start=msg89255#msg89255 date=1073958718]
Maybe I am off base, perhaps Marlin dude never read this thread? Perhaps I am just naive.
[/quote]

Marlin isn't much for the interweb, but Chris Geiger is a regular on the forum and he's a Marlin employee...he is the one who initiated the giveaway opportunity in the 80-100 section as well!
 
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