Vintage in TT?
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Chris,
I appreciate the fine job you are doing in a difficult market. I do feel that TT has an obligation to it's membership to not advertise outright fraudulent companies. Unlike mainstream rags, I look for advertisers in TT to give my business to. I tell them I saw their ad in TT. I have thanked them for supporting the TLCA.
I will stop harassing TT through this list until the Nov/Dec issue. If he is not gone then, then I will know that his money is more important to the organization than integrity. I feel confident that that is not the case.
I will try to do as Tony has suggested and write a formal letter to the TLCA voicing my opinions and suggest others do the same.
Again Chris, thanks for the job you do.
I appreciate the fine job you are doing in a difficult market. I do feel that TT has an obligation to it's membership to not advertise outright fraudulent companies. Unlike mainstream rags, I look for advertisers in TT to give my business to. I tell them I saw their ad in TT. I have thanked them for supporting the TLCA.
I will stop harassing TT through this list until the Nov/Dec issue. If he is not gone then, then I will know that his money is more important to the organization than integrity. I feel confident that that is not the case.
I will try to do as Tony has suggested and write a formal letter to the TLCA voicing my opinions and suggest others do the same.
Again Chris, thanks for the job you do.
Todd, Thanks for your kind words and your understanding. I also need to especially thank Tony for his support, too. It a frustrating situation. I'm trying to contact Greg at Vintage to find out what's going on. As I said, I'll let you know.
Chris
Chris
Look, I'm not a TLCA member but I am sorry Chris Hatfield, you may have a tough job selling ads, but that's life. Calling that guy up to point out the discrepency and ask him what was up was either incredibly foolish or smacks of giving someone a heads up to try to hush this up fast and let it blow over which is also the exact tenor of your earlier post about this. Of course he is going to claim it's a mistake and change his ad. The obvious thing to have done was to have somebody call apparently interested and see if he stood by the mileage even when you experessed doubt about it. In other words, give him enough rope to hang himself so you could either find out if he is truthful or catch him even more red handed than he already appears to be.
Chris from this action and reading your earlier post I get the feeling you don't care whether he is dishonest or not. Certainly your comment that "if it is that obvious is it really fraud" is utterly repellant to me. This fellow obviously makes a living selling to people who don't frequent boards like this and don't necessarily see old ads on eBay. Ask Drohweder on this board whether Greg's approach to sales is obvious to the uninitiated.
I find it incredible and disturbing that TLCA would hesitate like this on an obvious ethical issue over $2000. So you put out one less issue a year until you sell another ad. So what. This is a magazine for a club of enthusiasts for goodness sake. As a club you don't even have the profit motive to justify ignoring the ethics of doing business with this guy based on what your members are telling you. If you persist even after this I would love to see someone sue you over this after acting on one of his advertisements in your magazine. All the evidence they would need is on this board to show you knew about his conduct and still supported him by publishing his ads.
As for freedom of speech, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre and you can't tell lies. As for his contract, i'd say you have reasonable grounds to cancel it on the basis that he is consistently making innacurate claims about his vehicles and you do not wnat to be a party to what appears to bel fraud. Apart from this rollback issue, he consistently claims his vehicles have no rust when it is plainly not true and makes claims about his vehicles that many experienced enthusiasts (and former owners) say are untrue. If you were to just print out his current ads right now you would have ample grounds for dumping him for making misleading claims. As a club for enthusiasts I can't see any way he would have any claim back against you if you dropped him tomorrow provided you refunded his money pro-rata.
By the way, I have been strongly considering joining TLCA but no way will I do so right now. If it helps, I promise to join if you drop this guys' ads.
Chris from this action and reading your earlier post I get the feeling you don't care whether he is dishonest or not. Certainly your comment that "if it is that obvious is it really fraud" is utterly repellant to me. This fellow obviously makes a living selling to people who don't frequent boards like this and don't necessarily see old ads on eBay. Ask Drohweder on this board whether Greg's approach to sales is obvious to the uninitiated.
I find it incredible and disturbing that TLCA would hesitate like this on an obvious ethical issue over $2000. So you put out one less issue a year until you sell another ad. So what. This is a magazine for a club of enthusiasts for goodness sake. As a club you don't even have the profit motive to justify ignoring the ethics of doing business with this guy based on what your members are telling you. If you persist even after this I would love to see someone sue you over this after acting on one of his advertisements in your magazine. All the evidence they would need is on this board to show you knew about his conduct and still supported him by publishing his ads.
As for freedom of speech, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre and you can't tell lies. As for his contract, i'd say you have reasonable grounds to cancel it on the basis that he is consistently making innacurate claims about his vehicles and you do not wnat to be a party to what appears to bel fraud. Apart from this rollback issue, he consistently claims his vehicles have no rust when it is plainly not true and makes claims about his vehicles that many experienced enthusiasts (and former owners) say are untrue. If you were to just print out his current ads right now you would have ample grounds for dumping him for making misleading claims. As a club for enthusiasts I can't see any way he would have any claim back against you if you dropped him tomorrow provided you refunded his money pro-rata.
By the way, I have been strongly considering joining TLCA but no way will I do so right now. If it helps, I promise to join if you drop this guys' ads.
Wow "semlin" your a heavy hitter! I think you have made some great points and a strong legal argument. I can't immagine a lawsuit.
But Maybe this is the action we (the TLCA) need to take.
I can't believe this whole thing is over 2k though?
I would be happy to save the TT 2k by having my copies returned to black and white and plain paper like in the old days before the greed set in. If that would eliminate taking money from anyone that doesn't have the members/ enthusiast in mind I'm for it.
devo
But Maybe this is the action we (the TLCA) need to take.
I can't believe this whole thing is over 2k though?
I would be happy to save the TT 2k by having my copies returned to black and white and plain paper like in the old days before the greed set in. If that would eliminate taking money from anyone that doesn't have the members/ enthusiast in mind I'm for it.
devo
Guys, I called Vintage today, not to "tip him off", but to confront him with the accusations coming from these various boards. I don't want anyone who's committing fraudulent acts advertising either. Come on! He doesn't pay attention to what's posted on his web site which is a problem for him. As you all know he still didn't list mileage that would jive with the eBay listing once he "fixed" it. Again, his error. We do have a contract with him through the September/October issue which we must honor. I personally told him we would not be renewing his contract after that. He'll be gone from TT. And I have Tony and the BOD's backing on this. Please be patient with us until then.
I do encourage those of you that are not currently members to join TLCA. Your voice will carry that much more weight if you are members than not. Had I known more about this guy from the beginning I wouldn't have signed him on. I was recently tipped off about another guy, from this list, thank you, who had just contacted me about advertising. I won't be doing business with him either. I'm not going to make the same mistake twice.
I've got a big new advertiser starting in July/August and I'm going to be asking for everyone's support to keep them. Our reputation, like it or not, is that we don't patronize our advertisers very much. It makes my job that much tougher and I sure could use everyone's help.
You know, we're trying to do the right thing. It's not always easy.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any concerns with any of our advertisers. I welcome your input.
Thanks for your support.
Chris Hatfield
Ad Sales Manager, Toyota Trails
I do encourage those of you that are not currently members to join TLCA. Your voice will carry that much more weight if you are members than not. Had I known more about this guy from the beginning I wouldn't have signed him on. I was recently tipped off about another guy, from this list, thank you, who had just contacted me about advertising. I won't be doing business with him either. I'm not going to make the same mistake twice.
I've got a big new advertiser starting in July/August and I'm going to be asking for everyone's support to keep them. Our reputation, like it or not, is that we don't patronize our advertisers very much. It makes my job that much tougher and I sure could use everyone's help.
You know, we're trying to do the right thing. It's not always easy.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any concerns with any of our advertisers. I welcome your input.
Thanks for your support.
Chris Hatfield
Ad Sales Manager, Toyota Trails
Thanks for checking this out and acting, Chris. I will be joining the TLCA tonight with the expectation of not seeing Vintage after this fall, which will not be too soon. Glad to see that the TLCA is looking for quality advertisers in the future.
OK, I'm also in. Chris, reading back my post a day later it is a bit harsh. I should have waited until my blood stopped boiling and edited it before sending, and I would like to edit it now, but since I did post it I guess I should leave it.
application was submitted tonight, so now I am a member to be or "unprivileged user"
application was submitted tonight, so now I am a member to be or "unprivileged user"
[quote author=hatfieldcb link=board=10;threadid=7707;start=msg156788#msg156788 date=1084515916]
I've got a big new advertiser starting in July/August and I'm going to be asking for everyone's support to keep them. Our reputation, like it or not, is that we don't patronize our advertisers very much. It makes my job that much tougher and I sure could use everyone's help.
You know, we're trying to do the right thing. It's not always easy.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any concerns with any of our advertisers. I welcome your input.
Thanks for your support.
Chris Hatfield
Ad Sales Manager, Toyota Trails
[/quote]
This was brought up earlier in the thread, about who should get to advertise and who shouldn't. The arguement being that how many complaints of various types should act as guidelines for expulsion for the vendors. I say CCOT is great and someone else says they suck, who's right? Obviously Greg is a criminal, that is not in question at all. And as far as I know he's the only vendor to advertise in Trails with this much of a grassroots effort to ban him.
Anyways, I have heard the complaint for a while about TLCA members not spending enough dough with the "Big Name" vendors or being a pain in the ass about discounts or free shipping. I personally don't use most of the larger advertising vendors because of their inflated prices and shipping and handling costs. They know they have a limited market and are trying to make the most off their stock as possible, that's business but not competitive business.
Are they criminal? No they usually sell as advertised for the price of their product and ship in a timely manner, sometimes though you get a nice little surprise on the bill for their shipping and handling costs. And I don't recall any of them asking if I were a TLCA member or not and I generally never told them as there were no discounts involved.
So how do they track who's a member or not? Unless they are actually tracking the membership's purchases we will never know for sure and without doing so it would be difficult to justify a discount or free shipping deal for us. Maybe you could approach them about tracking for a year to see if it's worth it to them to cut us a deal or not. Just a thought.
Steve Allen
TLCA #8716
I've got a big new advertiser starting in July/August and I'm going to be asking for everyone's support to keep them. Our reputation, like it or not, is that we don't patronize our advertisers very much. It makes my job that much tougher and I sure could use everyone's help.
You know, we're trying to do the right thing. It's not always easy.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any concerns with any of our advertisers. I welcome your input.
Thanks for your support.
Chris Hatfield
Ad Sales Manager, Toyota Trails
[/quote]
This was brought up earlier in the thread, about who should get to advertise and who shouldn't. The arguement being that how many complaints of various types should act as guidelines for expulsion for the vendors. I say CCOT is great and someone else says they suck, who's right? Obviously Greg is a criminal, that is not in question at all. And as far as I know he's the only vendor to advertise in Trails with this much of a grassroots effort to ban him.
Anyways, I have heard the complaint for a while about TLCA members not spending enough dough with the "Big Name" vendors or being a pain in the ass about discounts or free shipping. I personally don't use most of the larger advertising vendors because of their inflated prices and shipping and handling costs. They know they have a limited market and are trying to make the most off their stock as possible, that's business but not competitive business.
Are they criminal? No they usually sell as advertised for the price of their product and ship in a timely manner, sometimes though you get a nice little surprise on the bill for their shipping and handling costs. And I don't recall any of them asking if I were a TLCA member or not and I generally never told them as there were no discounts involved.
So how do they track who's a member or not? Unless they are actually tracking the membership's purchases we will never know for sure and without doing so it would be difficult to justify a discount or free shipping deal for us. Maybe you could approach them about tracking for a year to see if it's worth it to them to cut us a deal or not. Just a thought.
Steve Allen
TLCA #8716
You know, the only other thing I feel like adding to this is:
Attorneys all post a generalized "disclaimer" in their advertising about their qualifications and who and what to ask.
It would've been wise to do so with the VOR ads. Post a small section in the classifieds or AD Space with a contact email and phone number to discuss any vehicle sales or purchases. Sort of like a "who's who" in the Cruiser community. Even a feedback forum much like the one that is unfolding here wouldn't hurt.
Of course, by the end of his contract, I think it's safe to say he'll be feeling the burn of the AG in Michigan and will be getting several phone calls and potential fines from the Michigan Consumer Protection Division.
Hell, I might be joing TLCA after all!
I still think calling him totally cut me off at the ankles with "buying" anything and "proving" his criminal activity. All of which I was working on doing. Hell, I needed a reason to go to Michigan to see the family anyway.
Oh well. I think we've got enough info on him. Again, if anyone wants a letter describing his latest fraudulent activity, and proof of it through saved web pages, just IM me.
[move]Good Bye GREG.
[/move]
Attorneys all post a generalized "disclaimer" in their advertising about their qualifications and who and what to ask.
It would've been wise to do so with the VOR ads. Post a small section in the classifieds or AD Space with a contact email and phone number to discuss any vehicle sales or purchases. Sort of like a "who's who" in the Cruiser community. Even a feedback forum much like the one that is unfolding here wouldn't hurt.
Of course, by the end of his contract, I think it's safe to say he'll be feeling the burn of the AG in Michigan and will be getting several phone calls and potential fines from the Michigan Consumer Protection Division.
Hell, I might be joing TLCA after all!
I still think calling him totally cut me off at the ankles with "buying" anything and "proving" his criminal activity. All of which I was working on doing. Hell, I needed a reason to go to Michigan to see the family anyway.
Oh well. I think we've got enough info on him. Again, if anyone wants a letter describing his latest fraudulent activity, and proof of it through saved web pages, just IM me.
[move]Good Bye GREG.
[/move][quote author=TRT2 link=board=10;threadid=7707;start=msg157144#msg157144 date=1084561338]
Steve... just tell them you saw their ad in Toyota Trails...
or ask them 'how come you don't advertise in Trails?'
That is probably the easiest.
Thanks All!
Tony
[/quote]
Tony, maybe you should mention it in your next update in Trails, that way all members will be aware of it not just this forum. Then maybe we will be a more attractive venue for company's to advertise with.
Steve... just tell them you saw their ad in Toyota Trails...
or ask them 'how come you don't advertise in Trails?'
That is probably the easiest.
Thanks All!
Tony
[/quote]
Tony, maybe you should mention it in your next update in Trails, that way all members will be aware of it not just this forum. Then maybe we will be a more attractive venue for company's to advertise with.
Chris,
Thanks for taking action and believing us. We don't squawk much but sometimes we mean it.
As far supporting vendors that advertise in the TT, I can count at least 6 that I do business with. From now on I'll make sure they know I see there add in the TT every other month and that's why I do business with them. Hopefully it will make the vendors happy too.
devo
Thanks for taking action and believing us. We don't squawk much but sometimes we mean it.
As far supporting vendors that advertise in the TT, I can count at least 6 that I do business with. From now on I'll make sure they know I see there add in the TT every other month and that's why I do business with them. Hopefully it will make the vendors happy too.
devo
http://www.vintageoffroad.com/viewvehicle.cfm?id=417
scroll down the page to the bottom "what people are saying"
scroll down the page to the bottom "what people are saying"
Note that he quoted me before I saw the truck. It further represents the level to which I was decieved. What a crook. I email him the following today:
[glow=red,2,300]Remove this from your comment section on the website.
"Things went very smoothly, thanks for selling me the truck and not jacking the price because you had lots of interest. I am glad to be the owner of the nicest 55 around. Its only going to get nicer with time. Eventually (after its paid off) a bare metal up paint job will be done in original colors. Its a looker and I can't wait to park that thing next to all the BMWs and Mercedes in the doctors lot! They'll freak. "
D.R. - Chicago
Greg: You grossly misprepresented the truck, lied about the mileage on your website and did jack the price on me. I screwed up and bought a truck from you...your business ethics are shady and its all coming to light. Thanks for teaching me a life lesson. Now take the initial quote (from before I saw the truck) off your website and feel free to replace it with the above. [/glow]
Wish I could have added this to the email:
[glow=red,2,300]Remove this from your comment section on the website.
"Things went very smoothly, thanks for selling me the truck and not jacking the price because you had lots of interest. I am glad to be the owner of the nicest 55 around. Its only going to get nicer with time. Eventually (after its paid off) a bare metal up paint job will be done in original colors. Its a looker and I can't wait to park that thing next to all the BMWs and Mercedes in the doctors lot! They'll freak. "
D.R. - Chicago
Greg: You grossly misprepresented the truck, lied about the mileage on your website and did jack the price on me. I screwed up and bought a truck from you...your business ethics are shady and its all coming to light. Thanks for teaching me a life lesson. Now take the initial quote (from before I saw the truck) off your website and feel free to replace it with the above. [/glow]
Wish I could have added this to the email: