wesintl said:
exactly.
US legal BJ74 (1 Viewer)
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exactly.
wesintl said:
because it might be a loophole. Legal, but easily closed.
Jan
ok.. good point Jan... 
wesintl said:
It is the same reason why congress votes for issues that are wrong or make legal things illegal, its politics. Let’s say it is legal however enough noise is made and customs looks into it and decides "we should really not allow this" and changes the policy, then it becomes illegal.
Another example is human involvement. If 10 people read the rules and regs you can get a number of interpretations of the rules, especially if you look at the wording on importing (there is a reason some sections are vague) now if you were to take the same cruiser to customs in Washington border as well as Montana border and New York border there is a chance you will get 3 different interpretations of the rules.
Again this is just a theory I am not saying it would happen.
Tell me if you think this one would happen. Lets say it is legal and there is a lot of JDM trucks that are brought in, if there were enough brought in the big three in Detroit would lobby for the rules to be changed and make it illegal. So here is the question, do you really think there is a good reason for having the import laws say autos older than 25 year verses 15 years?
Australia is a good example until May of this year auto can be imported that are 15 year or older, after May it will be 25 years or older. The reason is most likely the auto makers are upset they are losing business to great condition used imports, hence new law.
One final scenario that is true today. Toyota is a world company and is at capacity all over the world. They specifically sell certain Cruisers is certain areas and fully support them in those areas from Service to parts as well as sales. Toyota is not very keen on having Non-North American models sold in North America because they are concerned about not being able to support them (service and parts) and really do not have the bandwidth to support them. This is why they make is very hard to order parts directly from Toyota on vehicles that are not supposed to be those areas. That is also why Toyota will not offer letters stating that certain models meet US Safety and emissions standards.
Ok a long statement to make a short point. It does not matter if it is legal if enough people question it; there is a chance it will change.
Ok so Jan was able to express my point in less than 100 words.
Sorry for the lengthy previous post, but since I took the time to write I will leave it.
Cheers,
Michael
Sorry for the lengthy previous post, but since I took the time to write I will leave it.
Cheers,
Michael
lowenbrau
SILVER Star
Well said Micheal,
I have a unique perspective on these things, having had a Cruiser siezed and destroyed. There are many gov't divisions who have jurisdiction over a vehicle. If you are allowed by customs to bring a a vehicle for some reason. ( farm, mine use maybe) that doesn't mean that it meets the requirements of EPA or DOT. In my case, my vehicle was legally registered in my Province. Its a pretty easy thing to get done here. (it was done by the previous two owners) The fact that it was reegistered in a province didn't stop the mounties from showing up one day (on a tip from a previous owner) and takig it away.
In the case of the ebay BJ74, the BC VIN seems to be what is lightening the shade of grey. The BC VIN number has no make/model/ RHS/LHS info on it so it raises no flags at the border or registry. I'd be surprised if it is completely legal though.
Lots of armchair quarterbacks on this and other forums will see a guy making money and can't figure out how to do it themself. The temptation will be to bust him either on the internet or in real life.
I can legally bring to Canada, a brand new HZJ79 or HZJ105. I can register it and drive it around. A year later the feds will be knocking on my door and if I'm lucky I'll have to send it back. If I'm a crook I'll sell it to a Canadian before then or even get a BC VIN on it and sell it south. If a person is willing to work the system, its pretty easy to make something look completely legit that's not.
I have a unique perspective on these things, having had a Cruiser siezed and destroyed. There are many gov't divisions who have jurisdiction over a vehicle. If you are allowed by customs to bring a a vehicle for some reason. ( farm, mine use maybe) that doesn't mean that it meets the requirements of EPA or DOT. In my case, my vehicle was legally registered in my Province. Its a pretty easy thing to get done here. (it was done by the previous two owners) The fact that it was reegistered in a province didn't stop the mounties from showing up one day (on a tip from a previous owner) and takig it away.
In the case of the ebay BJ74, the BC VIN seems to be what is lightening the shade of grey. The BC VIN number has no make/model/ RHS/LHS info on it so it raises no flags at the border or registry. I'd be surprised if it is completely legal though.
Lots of armchair quarterbacks on this and other forums will see a guy making money and can't figure out how to do it themself. The temptation will be to bust him either on the internet or in real life.
I can legally bring to Canada, a brand new HZJ79 or HZJ105. I can register it and drive it around. A year later the feds will be knocking on my door and if I'm lucky I'll have to send it back. If I'm a crook I'll sell it to a Canadian before then or even get a BC VIN on it and sell it south. If a person is willing to work the system, its pretty easy to make something look completely legit that's not.
Landpimp said:
As stated early on in this thread that HJ61 was already stateside. If you were able to check the title on that, maybe through the freedom of info act you could request copies of the customs paperwork and see how it was imported originally.
Alex Da Silva who is on this board somewhere bought a Canadian spec'd diesel 60 series, got it home, titled it in his state as what it was, and a matter of a month or two later customs was at his door and his truck went back to Canada. Just because a vehicle's title reflects the proper model and VIN does not make it a legal import, nor does it make you immune from losing the vehicle. Lowenbrau's story is another sad example of title and current on-road registation not enough to make a vehicle legal.
This Cruiser on eBay I do not see how it can be done legally, period. Will it have a US title and plates and registaration? Yes. Does that make it legal? No. At any moment someone could take that truck away from its US owner. This is the reality. Does it matter if it is not legal as long as it has US title and plates and registration? That is up to each individual to decide for themselves.
If I were the first to figure it would I share? Yes, and in fact I have shared, see Everything I Ever Learned About Importing on this board.
Do I appreciate what TLCruiserman says about if the manner in which the truck is imported gets public what it could do? Yes, I do. But it also boils down to what others have already said: there would be no problems like he imagines could happen if the method were truly legal, period.
As for laws changing if the word got out on how to import diesel Cruisers legally, the number of these trucks that would come would not be enough to cause anyone to act, if these numbers were great enough then Toyota would already be selling them here, but their research shows that there isn't enough of a market. The laws we have now were in response to US auto retailers complaining back in the 80s, and with the increased strictness of saftey and emisisons standards, there is little reason to make laws to restrtict what we all do now and hope to do more of in the future by way of importing because it is so hard to meet any standards past 1996 as it is anyway. Import law wordwide are sunsetting and/or changing, none of this matters much anyway as it appears that in 20 years or so there will be one world standard that all cars will have to meet.
If this truck currently on eBay makes it in safely and legally and I can verify its legality, then I too will be next in line on his next offering, that is if any of the mounds of cash I am about to come into next week will still be around then, which I doubt, my money has a way of spending itself way too fast.
good points.
and I might try to dig up some info on the title transfer. problem is I don't have the plate # anymore.
and I might try to dig up some info on the title transfer. problem is I don't have the plate # anymore.
70seriesaddict said:
I think the whole "interpretation of the law" thing is key. If you fit into the nice easy "Check Box A" and there is no thought or interpretation of the laws and regulations required by Mr or Mrs "Boob behind the desk"...in these cases importation is a simple straight forward process. So it was with my 99 Jetta TDI when we moved from Calgary to Denver in 2000. I had the letter from VW, the stamp under the hood stating that the car met US DOT & EPA regulations, the customs inspector simply checked to see that my speedo read in miles as well as KM's, seat belts were there, blah blah blah....stamped my paperwork, easy peezy.
I think that (as was previously mentioned), the minute Mr or Mrs Boob has to actually think and make a decision considering exhibits, paperwork, evidence of any kind, and interpret the law, you are BOUND by human nature to get a different answer from everyone.
The bottom line is I've never talked to anyone who has imported a "grey market" vehicle who has the same story as someone else. You can get lucky, or in the case of someone like Lowen's story, very unlucky. The thought of a 100% legal, US customs cleared JDM is still a dream of mine....only to be realized the day I buy a JDM parts rig and swap everything into my US grown FJ62. Other than that, I personally would not be willing to take such a risk on a JDM even if it was somehow / someway sporting CA plates
I think that (as was previously mentioned), the minute Mr or Mrs Boob has to actually think and make a decision considering exhibits, paperwork, evidence of any kind, and interpret the law, you are BOUND by human nature to get a different answer from everyone.
The bottom line is I've never talked to anyone who has imported a "grey market" vehicle who has the same story as someone else. You can get lucky, or in the case of someone like Lowen's story, very unlucky. The thought of a 100% legal, US customs cleared JDM is still a dream of mine....only to be realized the day I buy a JDM parts rig and swap everything into my US grown FJ62. Other than that, I personally would not be willing to take such a risk on a JDM even if it was somehow / someway sporting CA plates
After reading all this and some of the other import post.... I think I may just stick with the 25 year deal. Heck by the time I can afford anything a HJ61 will be 25 yr. old
Or... do a swap of the engine, etc. but i do have one question on that and maybe i need to start up another thread....how many parts can you use from a jap spec vehicle on a US spec and still be good to go? HJ61 (high roof, deisel, cable lockers, etc.) FJ60/62 (use frame only or frame and body and cut roof off?) Let me know if I need to start another thread and i will.
Also, when you import a vehicle, and want to do it for parts, how much do you have to do? From what I can tell it is up to the specific customs agent?
Or... do a swap of the engine, etc. but i do have one question on that and maybe i need to start up another thread....how many parts can you use from a jap spec vehicle on a US spec and still be good to go? HJ61 (high roof, deisel, cable lockers, etc.) FJ60/62 (use frame only or frame and body and cut roof off?) Let me know if I need to start another thread and i will.
Also, when you import a vehicle, and want to do it for parts, how much do you have to do? From what I can tell it is up to the specific customs agent?
89s rule said:After reading all this and some of the other import post.... I think I may just stick with the 25 year deal. Heck by the time I can afford anything a HJ61 will be 25 yr. old
Or... do a swap of the engine, etc. but i do have one question on that and maybe i need to start up another thread....how many parts can you use from a jap spec vehicle on a US spec and still be good to go? HJ61 (high roof, deisel, cable lockers, etc.) FJ60/62 (use frame only or frame and body and cut roof off?) Let me know if I need to start another thread and i will.
Also, when you import a vehicle, and want to do it for parts, how much do you have to do? From what I can tell it is up to the specific customs agent?
most states the law is that the title (and hence on-road licensability) goes with the frame, so.....
as far as importing as parts, each border crossing and each customs officer is different, stickboy had to cut his frame to get it in as parts with the rest of vehicle intact, i got approval from a crossing supervisor to bring one in whole and complate even running. but best and safest to remove engine/tranny/t-case and ship those into the US separately then ship the rest. invoices must state used auto parts and list what parts there are, so list frame, body panels, axels an dthat should be enough. since importing as parts does not allow you any paperwork to title the vehicle with its orignal non-US title, check your state's laws regarding how to title a vehicle you built using used parts before attempting this.
Thanks ! I dont really want to title it in my state. Would rather use another cruiser and then use the title from it. Kind of a half and half. I want a LHD so that would work into it as well.
I guess there are +/- for having diff agents thinking differently. I would definately rather be able to bring in a complete running vehicle. I have seen a few HJ61's in AU for decent prices, but dont know much other than what was stated on-line. I am sure an imported works all this out for you, but how much do they charge? No wonder these cost so much Whats an average price for an outfitted HJ61? Dont want it rusted out, but doesnt have to be perfect like ones I see being imported either.
Is just swapping the frame illegal or grey? I mean if the title goes with the frame then why not just get a jap spec here then do a frame swap?
for me this has been the most imformative thread on importing I have read on here. Thanks a ton!!
I guess there are +/- for having diff agents thinking differently. I would definately rather be able to bring in a complete running vehicle. I have seen a few HJ61's in AU for decent prices, but dont know much other than what was stated on-line. I am sure an imported works all this out for you, but how much do they charge? No wonder these cost so much
Whats an average price for an outfitted HJ61? Dont want it rusted out, but doesnt have to be perfect like ones I see being imported either.Is just swapping the frame illegal or grey? I mean if the title goes with the frame then why not just get a jap spec here then do a frame swap?
for me this has been the most imformative thread on importing I have read on here. Thanks a ton!!
Anybody know the person who won this auction? Wonder if this rig will really make it to the US?
Looks like it went for $19,100.
Looks like it went for $19,100.
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Some trusting soul !!atomicpunk51 said:
I really hope it works out for them as that would be a lot of $$ to lose.
Still amazed that it went for that much.
Hopefully he/she will find this list and tell us all about the process.
Bob
1977 FJ40 "MuMu"
1992 FJ80 "Tubbs"
SurfPonto said:Some trusting soul !!
I really hope it works out for them as that would be a lot of $$ to lose.
Still amazed that it went for that much.
Hopefully he/she will find this list and tell us all about the process.
Bob
1977 FJ40 "MuMu"
1992 FJ80 "Tubbs"
I would not count on it. I think the truck is worth that much...if you can bring it into the US. I stoped bidding after getting a few bad signs from the owner, and also after seeing peopel that have been members of ebay for years that never have won anything on ebay, smells suspension to me. But that is just my take.
Cheers,
Michael
Wow, $19,100?!?!?!?!?!?!? I can't belive there are people willing to pay that much for a ~20 year old 4X4. There is no way I would pay that much for it I don't care how good of condition it is in. As long os people are willing to keep ponying up this kind of unrealistic amount of money I guess I will not be about to buy one of these cruisers. Oh well.
Jonathan
Jonathan
It's all relative my friend...how much is anything worth? As much as someone else is willing and able to pay for it
I can't believe that a run of the mill 3 bed one bath house in the Bay Area costs $700k either...but it does
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svo_jon said:
Hey Jonathan,
Unfortunately you are right.
It is a supply and demand thing.
Like Michael says it may be worth it ..if you could legally get it into the U.S..... but you will always be paying a premium for the nicer units.
I have a friend stationed on Okinawa and when I told him what these have been selling for over here he freaked. He just spent around $3000 for a nice turbo-diesel 4X4 Mitsubishi van.
Of course if he wanted to bring it back with him to CA then that might be another story. i.e. more $$$$
Bob
1977 FJ40 "MuMu"
1992 FJ80 "Tubbs"
svo_jon said:
There are people paying more than that for restored 40's with more miles. It's a classic as much as any 40. 3bt very low miles, cable lockers, 5speed, etc. Like Brett says it's what the market bears. That said I'd love to be driving it.
wesintl said:There are people paying more than that for restored 40's with more miles. It's a classic as much as any 40. 3bt very low miles, cable lockers, 5speed, etc. Like Brett says it's what the market bears. That said I'd love to be driving it.
Excellent axample Wes. If you want a restored 40 series from 79' or newer theyare going for high 20's. I get calls every week from cruiser heads looking for 70 series in USA and spend a lot of time looking for them. Right now I can tell you that an ok one (if you could find it) that is not turbo'd (from canada) will go for mid to high teens, add a turbo and you are over 20k. If you think about it based on what 70's are going for that BJ74 was uder priced based on supply and depend, however if you look at it as non-USA tagged it was a little over priced.
Something else to consider if you looked at a new 75 series pickup in Saudi or OZ the price is in the 40k range, so I used one lets say 97-99' will go for mid 20's.
Cheers,
Michael
