Tube bender proposal for club

[kulangot]

John, Has your friend ever bent 2" .120 DOM tube with that bender? The plate thickness in the picture makes me suspect. The ProBender model above is built with with 5/8" plate specifically to use a 2" die. They don't recommend using the 2" die in the 1/2" plate model. I totally agree with you on 2" for roll cages. Besides the strength factor the tube size just looks right to me on a 40.

John,

I talked to both my friend and the folks at Pro-Tools. Both said 2.0 no problem.

The HMP200 is made of thinner metal but if you consider how short the lengths of metal are there is no lack of strength given that there is less leverage on a shorter span a longer span would need to be thicker.

 

[Luthier]

A foolish purchase for the CLCC.

This bender can be used with an air compressor to make life easier, or manually, without air. The idea would be that members could borrow it to do their own projects once they had completed a basic bending tech day (to make sure they know how to use the equipment and don't hurt themselves or damage it).

Even if you do not own a welder, you can do all your bending and prep work, then have a friend or professional welder finish the job. Most of the cost to making a cage, bumper, sliders, etc.. is in the prep work, prior to welding.

Please give us your thoughts.

Spending this much Club money on a tool which will be benificial to a small minority of CLCC members seems foolhardy to me.

I am not entirely adverse to CLCC owning such a tool. I am opposed to the increased liability which the Club assumes by owning and granting access to such a tool. I am very much opposed to its purchase coming out of genral funds. I suggest that we instead do some fund-raisers and see if they will raise the money needed to purchase the tool. If the moneys are raised through this mechanism then it will be self-evident that enough members wanted it it enough to make it happen.

The requirement that a member be required to have "completed a basic bending tech day" sounds good in theory. But we hardly organize any tech days as it is and requring members to attend a tech day specific to the use of this tool will require the following things:
* a documented lesson plan
* using materials/stock to demonstrate the tool
* having people willing to demonstrate and lead the tech day
* availability of the authorized instructors prior to making the tool available to a member
* criterion for determining who is or is not authorized to use the tool
* a place to store and maintain the tools which is accessable to all members

The CLCC will assume additional liability by owning this tool.

CLCC is not a legal entity which means that the liability probably falls by default on to the clubs officers.

I could say more but this seems like more than enough argument to quash the idea.

-- Eugene

 

[kulangot]

Spending this much Club money on a tool which will be benificial to a small minority of CLCC members seems foolhardy to me.

I am not entirely adverse to CLCC owning such a tool. I am opposed to the increased liability which the Club assumes by owning and granting access to such a tool. I am very much opposed to its purchase coming out of genral funds. I suggest that we instead do some fund-raisers and see if they will raise the money needed to purchase the tool. If the moneys are raised through this mechanism then it will be self-evident that enough members wanted it it enough to make it happen.

The requirement that a member be required to have "completed a basic bending tech day" sounds good in theory. But we hardly organize any tech days as it is and requring members to attend a tech day specific to the use of this tool will require the following things:
* a documented lesson plan
* using materials/stock to demonstrate the tool
* having people willing to demonstrate and lead the tech day
* availability of the authorized instructors prior to making the tool available to a member
* criterion for determining who is or is not authorized to use the tool
* a place to store and maintain the tools which is accessable to all members

The CLCC will assume additional liability by owning this tool.

CLCC is not a legal entity which means that the liability probably falls by default on to the clubs officers.

I could say more but this seems like more than enough argument to quash the idea.

-- Eugene

Wise Words Eugene.

I am a not a lawyer, and I don't know how the club would be liable for having a tube bender. I guess someone could die or get hurt in a wreck where they used the bender to build a cage. Any conversation regarding this by anyone who is not a lawyer and who does not have specific legal expertise in what ever area of law that concerns this, is nothing but pure conjecture. I am not saying that this should not be discussed, but what you think makes sense, or what seems logical is irrelevant. It's what a judge decides and what a jury decides - not what we all think.

However, I think it is very wise that you brought this up Eugene - because of the whole legal debacle that the RTI ramp created for the club in 1999 (involving yours truly). None of which was foreseen by anyone and the bad blood created by the RTI was not worth having it in my opinion. I wish I'd never gotten involved in it when the person who initiated the idea did not get it done before our swap meet as he promised. I stepped it and got it done and the rest of it is best described as "no good deed goes unpunished".

Regarding liability, when I consulted an attorney about the RTI ramp, he said that every member of the club was liable and the builder/engineer/welder of the ramp was most liable - all of that me, me, me and it was also built at my house and therefore under my legal personal umbrella. This sort of liability is one of the reasons (aside from the RTI ramp debacle) that I am no longer an active member of the club. If someone gets hurt on an un insured trail ride, the rest of you can held legally responsible. This is something that comes up again and again in the motor cycle world.

I say you guys get the bender but maybe talk to a lawyer first.

-Stumbaugh

 

[John Smith]

Spending this much Club money on a tool which will be benificial to a small minority of CLCC members seems foolhardy to me.

I am not entirely adverse to CLCC owning such a tool. I am opposed to the increased liability which the Club assumes by owning and granting access to such a tool. I am very much opposed to its purchase coming out of genral funds. I suggest that we instead do some fund-raisers and see if they will raise the money needed to purchase the tool. If the moneys are raised through this mechanism then it will be self-evident that enough members wanted it it enough to make it happen.

The requirement that a member be required to have "completed a basic bending tech day" sounds good in theory. But we hardly organize any tech days as it is and requring members to attend a tech day specific to the use of this tool will require the following things:
* a documented lesson plan
* using materials/stock to demonstrate the tool
* having people willing to demonstrate and lead the tech day
* availability of the authorized instructors prior to making the tool available to a member
* criterion for determining who is or is not authorized to use the tool
* a place to store and maintain the tools which is accessable to all members

The CLCC will assume additional liability by owning this tool.

CLCC is not a legal entity which means that the liability probably falls by default on to the clubs officers.

I could say more but this seems like more than enough argument to quash the idea.

-- Eugene

Eugene, Thanks for letting us know your feelings on the tube bender idea. Unfortunately since you are not a paid member in good standing of the CLCC you don't get an official vote in the matter.

 

[John Smith]

Wise Words Eugene.

I am a not a lawyer, and I don't know how the club would be liable for having a tube bender. I guess someone could die or get hurt in a wreck where they used the bender to build a cage. Any conversation about it by anyone who does not have legal expertise in what ever legal area concerning this noting but pure conjecture.

However, I think it is very wise that you brought this up Eugene - because of the whole legal debacle that the RTI ramp created for the club in 1999 (involving yours truly). None of which was foreseen by anyone and the bad blood created by the RTI was not worth having it in my opinion. I wish I'd never gotten involved in it when the person who initiated the idea did not get it done before our swap meet as he promised. I stepped it and got it done and the rest of it is best described as "no good deed goes unpunished".

Regarding liability, when I consulted an attorney about the RTI ramp, he said that every member of the club was liable and the builder/engineer/welder of the ramp was most liable - all of that me, me, me and it was also built at my house and therefore under my legal personal umbrella. This sort of liability is one of the reasons (aside from the RTI ramp debacle) that I am no longer an active member of the club. If someone gets hurt on an un insured trail ride, the rest of you can held legally responsible. This is something that comes up again and again in the motor cycle world.

I say you guys get the bender but maybe talk to a lawyer first.

-Stumbaugh

I have a few friends who practice law and will check with them about liability. The RTI debacle is water under that proverbial bridge. Thanks for following up about that bender. I think we should consider that bender and multiple dies if we go forward with this.

 

[H2o]

I am always amazed at how ambulance chaser's control every aspect of our lives. That being said, these are good points Eugene brings up. We should discuss and look into them.

But don't we come across the same liability issues when we had our swap meets and we played around with the ramps to test our trucks' suspension flex? Or when we go wheeling?

 

[kulangot]

Agree, water under bridge.

To clarify, I still think this is the coolest thing that I've seen you guys do. Very cool idea.

To match it, I'll host a tube fab weld day and talk about the type of welding related to welding around circle. Heat control, etc.

 

[kulangot]

I am always amazed at how ambulance chaser's control every aspect of our lives. That being said, these are good points Eugene brings up. We should discuss and look into them.

But don't we come across the same liability issues when we had our swap meets and we played around with the ramps to test our trucks' suspension flex? Or when we go wheeling?

We did have the same issues with the RTI ramp - this is not longer exists.

And you do when you go wheeling. Who ever organizes a trip can be held liable. This even applies to people organizing street motorcycles rides. Someone dies and or gets hurt and the ambulance chasers go after the organizers and try to pin liability on them.

It could be an insurance company trying to get out of making a claim on someone's new FJ cruiser.

Can of worms...

I'll bow out of this ,I too am no longer a member. You guys can sort this out.

 

[John Smith]

Agree, water under bridge.

To clarify, I still think this is the coolest thing that I've seen you guys do. Very cool idea.

To match it, I'll host a tube fab weld day and talk about the type of welding related to welding around circle. Heat control, etc.

If this happens, that would be a most excellent idea for a tech day!

And if it doesn't happen... I have a feeling Dan is going to have a lot of new friends who want to come and check out his bender.

 

[Felix]

We have had RTI ramps at 2 or 3 of the last swap meets... It was not the clubs however. They were being used actively.

At the swap meet at GMU, we made people sign a release form before using the ramp. I'm sure that wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference in court, but it was something.

 

[kulangot]

YouTube - Hummer on the RTI Ramp ... Rolls it

Ha Ha

 

[Luthier]

Eugene, Thanks for letting us know your feelings on the tube bender idea. Unfortunately since you are not a paid member in good standing of the CLCC you don't get an official vote in the matter.

Actually John I am one of less than a handful of persons to have been given a CLCC Lifetime membership. I no longer recall who the other Life members are. 8^P

In spite of this I have payed my annual dues every so often because I felt it was a good thing to do.

Regards
-- Eugene

 

[kulangot]

Actually John I am one of less than a handful of persons to have been given a CLCC Lifetime membership. I no longer recall who the other Life members are. 8^P

Regards
-- Eugene

Eguene,

BS.

No one has a lifetime membership. If anyone did, or if anyone deserved it, it would be James Asti the club's founder or Josh Fleming - who has done more for the club than any other person involved. Behind him would be Guillermo, Lance, Rob, Cammy, Scott, etc.

You have been around no longer than I have. We've never had a lifetime membership.

 

[H2o]

It was Josh, when i contacted him to write a history of the club who mentioned that he had a 'life time' membership. I brought it up at the meeting and us 'youts' had never heard of it and were floored. I looked into it and our bylaws (that surfaced a few years back) does mention a lifetime membership. Now if it was awarded or not, none of us would be able to double check unless we still have the meeting minutes from that time.

 

[kulangot]

This is getting off topic! But I just called Josh to ask him.

 

[John Smith]

Actually John I am one of less than a handful of persons to have been given a CLCC Lifetime membership. I no longer recall who the other Life members are. 8^P

In spite of this I have payed my annual dues every so often because I felt it was a good thing to do.

Regards
-- Eugene

Eugene, I have asked for years for you or anyone else to produce something official from the club that states anything about this "Lifetime Membership" thing and I have yet to see anything but Josh's reference to it in his club history write up. AFAIC there are no "Lifetime Members" of the CLCC who are not required to pay dues.

 

[John Smith]

To get this thread back on topic. I think we should follow guidelines like this if we do decide to purchase a bender. https://forum.ih8mud.com/sc-upstate-cruisers/180973-uc-bender.html

 

[H2o]

No worries. The topic is the Tube bender. There was an overwhelming interest. We will look at the tube bender that Colangut brought to the table as a viable option. We will look at the issues that Luthier brought to the table... And we will go from there.

We will not sneak this through but put it to a proper vote. We had thought of the possibility of using ih8mud or email to vote, but we need to see if the bylaws would allow us to do so. The idea being that this is a major purchase and we want to make sure all members can vote.

 

[H2o]

To get this thread back on topic. I think we should follow guidelines like this if we do decide to purchase a bender. https://forum.ih8mud.com/sc-upstate-cruisers/180973-uc-bender.html

Wow, thanks John. That is a great start. Reading that first post brings up some points I had not thought about. Any liability wavers?

Charging a fee would be a good way to justify spending the money. It would also help maintain it if anyone broke something and did not own up to the damage. AND would help us buy more dies and tools.

 

[John Smith]

Wow, thanks John. That is a great start. Reading that first post brings up some points I had not thought about. Any liability wavers?

Charging a fee would be a good way to justify spending the money. It would also help maintain it if anyone broke something and did not own up to the damage. AND would help us buy more dies and tools.

If liability waivers would make people happy, by all means we can use them. The bottom line is you can sue anyone for just about anything in our fine country. I can have you sign one of those "sign away your life waivers", the way you must before you bungee jump or parachute, and your family can still turn around and sue me.

Let's start another thread about the legal and liability issues and try to keep this thread on topic.