topo maps software: same as USGS?

[e9999]

these various commercial topo software packages, Garmin, NG, etc, are these the same basic maps as those by the USGS, like the ones I see on my USAphotomaps soft? I imagine none of these companies have the resources to do real topo surveying countrywide, but then they could have superposed commercial road mapping etc...

oddly, on the USAPM, you can see the junction of maps and sometimes a jump as if they aren't aligned properly. Just guessing, looks like maybe 100m off, maybe more. What's with that? Is that the same with the commercial topo map SW?

 

[2mbb]

the national geographic Topo! software with resolution equivalent to the 7.5 minute topo maps, appears to use the 7.5 minute USGS maps. The maps could be scans of the USGS maps. As you zoom in higher than 100%, the graphic detail gets fuzzy. I'm not familar with Garmin, however, the software I've used that gets uploaded into handheld GPS units has less resolution than the USGS or TOPO! products.

Here's and example of the TOPO! content at the highest resolution (7.5 minute) and 100% zoom.

 

[spressomon]

The NG, as above, appear to be USGS based upon both of mine. The DeLorme is quite a bit different: I do not know their map data source.

 

[e9999]

the pic above looks like it's cleaner than the USGS topo maps. Maybe they rescanned them, cleaned them up, and put nicer fonts and lines on everything...? the little trails (dashed lines) are particularly hard to see on my topo maps, easily lost in the contour lines, not like above.

 

[GeoRoss]

Eric,

For the most part all those companies are using the USGS as a base map. The misalignment is common for those programs that use/have sloppy stitching algorithms.

Different companies 'add' different amounts of 'value' to the USGS map, be this stitching neighbors, added locations/roads, etc.


Ross

 

[e9999]

Eric,

For the most part all those companies are using the USGS as a base map. The misalignment is common for those programs that use/have sloppy stitching algorithms.

Different companies 'add' different amounts of 'value' to the USGS map, be this stitching neighbors, added locations/roads, etc.


Ross

that's what I thought.
so is it worth it to buy the commercial stuff or is that relatively little Value-added, compared to USGS?

seems like USAPM does just about what all the commercial softs do, plus photos, but minus downloading to handheld GPSs?

 

[Mark W]

The Delorme Topo Quads are full on USGS maps at higher resolution. When you zoom out, it changes over to their own stuff. The basic map source is probably the same, but things like road/trail overlays and stuff like that comes from a variety of sources.
There is too much detail in USGS when you zoom out to view larger areas.


Mark...

 

[GeoRoss]

that's what I thought.
so is it worth it to buy the commercial stuff or is that relatively little Value-added, compared to USGS?

seems like USAPM does just about what all the commercial softs do, plus photos, but minus downloading to handheld GPSs?

There's the rub, if you want to download it to your GPS unit, you are at the mercy of your manufacturer and their proprietary software and map formats.

If you were using some sort of laptop or PDA, then the world opens up to you. Depending on how much you value your time, you can download all the topo's you need for free and georectify them yourself, or you can buy a prepackaged deal.

As to what the commercial people add? Squat IMHO. Essentially all they do is georectify a free topo. They sometimes trim to the neat lines. Very rarely do they add anything (content) a person couldn't do for themself with software they would already be using. Drunk monkeys can do that. It then becomes a question of what your time is worth. I do alot of stuff all over the state of AZ, UT and NM. It was worth it to me to buy all the 1:24K, 1,100K and 1:250K maps pre registered for MacGPS Pro (my prefered in car nav software). For recreational use, I would try to plan ahead, download all the maps I would need for a trip and georectify them myself. It takes me 5-15 minutes per map depending on how anal I am at the time or need to be.

Ross

 

[Mark W]

Well, it's not that cut and dry. Drunk monkeys *could* add the info. IF they could find it. I spend a LOT of time researching forgotten routes, trails and roads. I talk to oldtimers who have lived and hunted in the areas I am exploring. I dig through State databases searching for hints of old routes that sound as if they might still be usable. Lots of stuff like that. And I still find that the information pertaining to trails that is included in the commercially created data is very helpful. Not always accurate. Far from it. But definitley very helpful.
And I'm approaching it from the view of someone who has already put a lot of effort into finding my own info. Very very very few others do this.


Mark...

 

[GeoRoss]

Well, it's not that cut and dry. Drunk monkeys *could* add the info. IF they could find it. I spend a LOT of time researching forgotten routes, trails and roads. I talk to oldtimers who have lived and hunted in the areas I am exploring. I dig through State databases searching for hints of old routes that sound as if they might still be usable. Lots of stuff like that. And I still find that the information pertaining to trails that is included in the commercially created data is very helpful. Not always accurate. Far from it. But definitley very helpful.
And I'm approaching it from the view of someone who has already put a lot of effort into finding my own info. Very very very few others do this.


Mark...

To be fair and clear, I was refering to georefrencing for the most part. I have just not had much experience where a commercial product's content add-ons were that great. National Parks and other areas of high visitation are more likely to have additional info that is of use. The rest of the country ends up just a georefrenced, cropped USGS topo.

I love doing what you are talking about. As a first swath, I find old USGS topos and Army maps to be useful. There are some old (1880?) army maps for certain areas of AZ, mostly where the army was, which happend to be where mining was going on. Some cool info, but you have to take the absolute location with a grain of salt, but those old guys new how to make a map.

Ross

ps I do stand by the comment that 'drunk monkeys' can georefrence a topo.

 

[Mark W]

Up here the info that I can track down is more often merely textual or verbal descriptions rather than actual maps. Make for a real "treasure hunt" sometimes.

And you are absolutely right about taking the locations indicated by any mapping software with a grain of salt. More like a whole shaker of it usually.

One thing I run into is that the routes shown on the commercial databases are often nothing more than an interpetation of OLD info about what was little more than a foot or mule trail in many cases. In reality the track used when wagons or any sort of equipment started following the route is often on the other side of the valley, on the high ground instead of the low, or vis-versa.

But it is still helpful... One more datapint tobe added to the mix.


Mark...

 

[esh]

Mark,

What software are you referring to when you're talking about zooming out? I don't have a lot of experience with Delorme or Terrain Navigator besides what friends bring along on exploration trips. A friend also has done the work to bring the state into Ozi with sat photos and a couple different data sets.

TOPO! has 5 separate data sets for each layer-

Level 1 (highest) is NG's reference
Level 2 is also NG's
Level 3 is the 500k series USGS
Level 4 is the 100k series USGS
Level 5 is the 7.5' series USGS


.. I rarely am at level 1-2 except to move around quickly. 3-5 are completely different sets of data and I frequently move between them because they contain different POIs. The 100k stuff typically contains POIs that 7.5' actually doesn't have.

You can actually rt-click on the 7.5' maps and see which map was used as the reference- typically 1960s-1980s throughout Oregon. NG has been doing a lot of updating the data recently (which is a bad thing IMHO as the data sets have been removing a lot of historic info/sites).

(this is the quote i'm referring to, the last sentence- "The Delorme Topo Quads are full on USGS maps at higher resolution. When you zoom out, it changes over to their own stuff. The basic map source is probably the same, but things like road/trail overlays and stuff like that comes from a variety of sources.
There is too much detail in USGS when you zoom out to view larger areas.
")

It's interesting to see how the different tools handle this problem.

 

[esh]

Ah and to add that we've had to do some work to find things purposefully removed from maps. Old logging maps found in small town library/town halls have been a boon.

 

[e9999]

GR, what do you mean by "georectify"?
When I look at the USAPM maps, it's all ready to connect to a GPS, already has the link between map and coordinates and all. I do see quite a bit of bad stitching, but may not be that bad in absolute terms.

for those who don't know yet, USAPhotomaps is a freeware program that downloads the USGS topo maps from Terraserver. It has both the 1/24K and the bigger ones. Plus aerial photos, streets and all. Can connect to GPS. Very nice.

 

[Mark W]

Mark,

What software are you referring to when you're talking about zooming out? I don't have a lot of experience with Delorme or Terrain Navigator besides what friends bring along on exploration trips. A friend also has done the work to bring the state into Ozi with sat photos and a couple different data sets.

TOPO! has 5 separate data sets for each layer-

Level 1 (highest) is NG's reference
Level 2 is also NG's
Level 3 is the 500k series USGS
Level 4 is the 100k series USGS
Level 5 is the 7.5' series USGS


.. I rarely am at level 1-2 except to move around quickly. 3-5 are completely different sets of data and I frequently move between them because they contain different POIs. The 100k stuff typically contains POIs that 7.5' actually doesn't have.

You can actually rt-click on the 7.5' maps and see which map was used as the reference- typically 1960s-1980s throughout Oregon. NG has been doing a lot of updating the data recently (which is a bad thing IMHO as the data sets have been removing a lot of historic info/sites).

(this is the quote i'm referring to, the last sentence- "The Delorme Topo Quads are full on USGS maps at higher resolution. When you zoom out, it changes over to their own stuff. The basic map source is probably the same, but things like road/trail overlays and stuff like that comes from a variety of sources.
There is too much detail in USGS when you zoom out to view larger areas.
")

It's interesting to see how the different tools handle this problem.

I use Delorme Topo Quads. 13 levels with something like 10 steps in each level. Most of it is just changing the scale of the view on the screen without changing the actual info. Mainly just so you can tailor the view to see everything you want to. As you increase the scale it switches from the Delorme version of the maps to true USGS maps.

I mainly is the Alaska CD set (8 CDs). It's been a while since I had any reason to use any others. In Alaska even the USGS does not have many areas mapped to high precision. And most of the maps date back to the 50s, with aerial updates in the 70s and ocasionally the '80s.

99.9999% of the trails and other routes that are traveled are not on the USGS maps. quite a few are indicated on the commercial overlays, but as mentioned, they are not particularly accurate.

Heck, even in the close in areas only the major roads are on the USGS maps. Virtually none of the secondary rods up here show up onthe maps.


Mark...

 

[spressomon]

I use Delorme Topo Quads. 13 levels with something like 10 steps in each level. Most of it is just changing the scale of the view on the screen without changing the actual info. Mainly just so you can tailor the view to see everything you want to. As you increase the scale it switches from the Delorme version of the maps to true USGS maps.

I mainly is the Alaska CD set (8 CDs). It's been a while since I had any reason to use any others. In Alaska even the USGS does not have many areas mapped to high precision. And most of the maps date back to the 50s, with aerial updates in the 70s and ocasionally the '80s.

99.9999% of the trails and other routes that are traveled are not on the USGS maps. quite a few are indicated on the commercial overlays, but as mentioned, they are not particularly accurate.

Heck, even in the close in areas only the major roads are on the USGS maps. Virtually none of the secondary rods up here show up onthe maps.


Mark...

One of the few things I don't like about my DeLorme (v5.0 & v6.0): You have to drill down to small scale/area before you can view the names of most trails, creeks, springs, dirt roads, etc. The NG provides this information regardless of which scale you are viewing. And, as another example, while hunting a few weeks ago in a familiar area the DeLorme showed several dirt 4x4 type roads...then in actuality they simply were not there...nor a hint that they were ever there. But as said above each map software has it's own redeaming value...and no one map offers 'it all'...IMO. Another point in favor of using non-proprietary hardware...I wish Sony would hurry up and release the flash drive version of their micro PC stateside!!!

 

[GeoRoss]

GR, what do you mean by "georectify"?
When I look at the USAPM maps, it's all ready to connect to a GPS, already has the link between map and coordinates and all. I do see quite a bit of bad stitching, but may not be that bad in absolute terms.

for those who don't know yet, USAPhotomaps is a freeware program that downloads the USGS topo maps from Terraserver. It has both the 1/24K and the bigger ones. Plus aerial photos, streets and all. Can connect to GPS. Very nice.

By georectify, I mean taking a scanned paper map (essentially an image with no location) and giving it at geospatial reference, ie giving the corners some sort of map number in lat/long or UTM. It is the same process for a digital map that is downloaded w/out a geospatial reference. The process is dependent on the software package used. Not all commercial packages have this feature. I have access to a 42" drum scanner and often scan in old geologic maps or others maps and georectify them for in-vehicle navigation in the field on a laptop. I sometimes find that maps that are already georectified were not done as well as I would like and I rectify them myself for better accuracy.

Often, when you download a map there is second file with the georeferencing data. A common format is a 'geotiff'. There are also proprietary formats as well. Different programs deal with this in different ways and it is not always seamless. Most maps are rasters so the refrence file gives a geospatial reference to diffrent cells of the raster, which cells are format dependent. The mapping software then overlays the geospatial grid that fits the map for navigation and whatnot. The math is much easier for projected maps that maitain correct angles (ie UTM) as they are just a rectangle with right angles at the corners.

One very common cause of bad stitching is when putting two projected maps next to each other that are in different UTM zones. Sometimes (rarely) it is due to actual discreprencies between the two maps. Some packages deal with this better than others.

For full disclosure, I really don't use many of the commercial packages that have been discussed, so others can better discuss their actual features. I will say that for the PC world, it is hard to beat OziExplorer and for the Mac, MacGPS Pro. They don't come preloaded with maps, but are fully funtional programs for both real-time use and pre-trip planning. Ozi is a pain to print, MacGPS Pro just a bit less of a pain, but a pain none the less.

Ross

 

[Hants]

I have several mapping programs:

DeLorme Topo USA - Appears to based on full-detail (7.5 minute or better) VECTOR information from USGS. They provide both 2d & 3d views. UI is somewhat difficult, but detail & scale is great. Another cool feature is to zoom out and see USGS 7.5 minute map names -- extremely useful for ordering USGS printed maps from Denver.

MapSource Topo - Appears to be based on low-resolution (15 minute or worse) VECTOR information from USGS. 2D only, and low resolution -- BUT, I can download it to my Garmin GPS.

ExpertGPS - Internet downloads of sliced up USGS BITMAP maps. It will auto-download 7.5 minute, 15 minute, and more. Fuzzy when zoomed way in, and not perfectly accurate when overlaying GPS data. Easy to use, cheap, and allows track/route/waypoint editing.

Google Earth Pro - Way cool display/navigation of satellite images. Surprisingly detailed pictures when you zoom in. Can overlay routes/tracks and see what's actually on the ground under them (alternate routes, old roads).