The Sourdough Thread
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Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Got my sourdo.com starter packets. I got the "Italian" cultures- 2 different strains of yeast/bacteria in separate packages. It's packaged like beer yeast.
Anyway, started the activation process on one of the packages tonight. I'll get to make a batch of dough in 3-4 days, so maybe next weekend.
Anyway, started the activation process on one of the packages tonight. I'll get to make a batch of dough in 3-4 days, so maybe next weekend.
I'd really like to try some. It sounds awesome.
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Some progress...
Started one of the Italian sourdough cultures from Ed Wood. It took 3 days or so for it to become active and able to make a levain. Feeding every 12 hours is a bit tedious, but, the results are good.
So today, I took a good portion and made a small pizza dough using the Jeff V. baker's %. It only rose for 2 hours or so before going into the oven at 450-500 degrees. Jeff V likes 800 degrees, but it's what I've got.
This was very simple stuff. Garden tomatoes(no sauce, just tomatoes), fresh Mozz, some basil from the yard, olive oil and ...
So this was about the best home made dough/pizza ever. Whether it's the culture, the heat, the autolyse, or the King Author bread flour, it was a total surprise, and significantly better than all previous attempts at pizza dough in the last 25 years.
No yeast was used. Only the sourdough starter, flour, salt and water.
I've got Spresso's culture established and rocking on the counter. After another day or so, it will go in the fridge, so I don't need to feed it so often. I'll feed it 10/12 and should be good to go home on 10/13.
Here's a few tips..
The King Arthur bread flour is really great.
King Arthur unbleached all purpose flour is excellent too and available in 10 pound sacks for a good price at Smart and Final.
There is some cool science involved in all of this. Look up the great posts by Debra Wink and starting with Pineapple juice (for the pH) and flour.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
You don't really need a packaged starter but it helps, and speeds the process several days. Plus, you end up with a known quantity. I am very happy with the Ed Wood Italian starter. I used the "Camaldoli" and still have the Ischia in reserve.
Commercial yeast has no place in establishing a starter.
If you go the sourdough route, Mason jars work well to hold the starter culture, but the lexan plastic kitchen square containers are better because they are easier to clean, and easier to mix.
Lots of interesting stuff in the sourdough world.
Started one of the Italian sourdough cultures from Ed Wood. It took 3 days or so for it to become active and able to make a levain. Feeding every 12 hours is a bit tedious, but, the results are good.
So today, I took a good portion and made a small pizza dough using the Jeff V. baker's %. It only rose for 2 hours or so before going into the oven at 450-500 degrees. Jeff V likes 800 degrees, but it's what I've got.
This was very simple stuff. Garden tomatoes(no sauce, just tomatoes), fresh Mozz, some basil from the yard, olive oil and ...
So this was about the best home made dough/pizza ever. Whether it's the culture, the heat, the autolyse, or the King Author bread flour, it was a total surprise, and significantly better than all previous attempts at pizza dough in the last 25 years.
No yeast was used. Only the sourdough starter, flour, salt and water.
I've got Spresso's culture established and rocking on the counter. After another day or so, it will go in the fridge, so I don't need to feed it so often. I'll feed it 10/12 and should be good to go home on 10/13.
Here's a few tips..
The King Arthur bread flour is really great.
King Arthur unbleached all purpose flour is excellent too and available in 10 pound sacks for a good price at Smart and Final.
There is some cool science involved in all of this. Look up the great posts by Debra Wink and starting with Pineapple juice (for the pH) and flour.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
You don't really need a packaged starter but it helps, and speeds the process several days. Plus, you end up with a known quantity. I am very happy with the Ed Wood Italian starter. I used the "Camaldoli" and still have the Ischia in reserve.
Commercial yeast has no place in establishing a starter.
If you go the sourdough route, Mason jars work well to hold the starter culture, but the lexan plastic kitchen square containers are better because they are easier to clean, and easier to mix.
Lots of interesting stuff in the sourdough world.
^ good intel! I have French starter coming...wanted something on the lower end of sour scale. But it will be interesting to taste the difference between French and Italian apart of my Neapolitan dough pies.
Unless not a self cleaner your kitchen oven will go beyond 550*...I suspect you already know that though
Unless not a self cleaner your kitchen oven will go beyond 550*...I suspect you already know that though
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
You make it sound so tawdry...
Actually, the Camaldoli culture rocks. I've made 2 pizza crusts, one set of fantastic bread sticks and 1 batch of sour dough pancakes. The secret is the overnight(or 2 or 3 nights) cold proof of the dough.
Dan took some of my starter home and hopefully will make a killer 'za and report in.
I'm going to use it to make Focaccia as I have a feeling it would be pretty epic.
I received my order of France sourdough culture and Ed Wood's book last week...along with a portion of Andy's Italy sourdough culture starter. I won't have time for pizza dough making until later this month or early November.
My goal is more flavor for the pizza dough recipe from Jeff Varasano which I've come to like and depend on. It will be an experiment adapting the two starter cultures to that recipe. Ed Wood's pizza dough recipe, at the end of the day, would be too time consuming for this guy; Varasano's recipe can sit in the refrigerator unattended for up to a week with just an hour or so rise time on the counter before pizza creation...about the same time it takes my outdoor oven to get to 700+ degrees. Easy peasy!
Learning from Ed Wood's book: I also prefer the less sour taste profile apparently from younger starter and found it interesting, since this sourdough starter thing is all new to me, as the starter ages it gets more acidic and hence sour. Per Ed Wood you can mitigate this to some degree by refreshing the refrigerated starter culture over time...
Will report back...
My goal is more flavor for the pizza dough recipe from Jeff Varasano which I've come to like and depend on. It will be an experiment adapting the two starter cultures to that recipe. Ed Wood's pizza dough recipe, at the end of the day, would be too time consuming for this guy; Varasano's recipe can sit in the refrigerator unattended for up to a week with just an hour or so rise time on the counter before pizza creation...about the same time it takes my outdoor oven to get to 700+ degrees. Easy peasy!
Learning from Ed Wood's book: I also prefer the less sour taste profile apparently from younger starter and found it interesting, since this sourdough starter thing is all new to me, as the starter ages it gets more acidic and hence sour. Per Ed Wood you can mitigate this to some degree by refreshing the refrigerated starter culture over time...
Will report back...
Well...after buying, reading and re-reading Ed Wood's sourdough book I felt he left out more info about building a sourdough starter than he included; I found it very disjointed. IMHO his book doesn't provide enough detailed instruction for a beginning sourdough maker like me. Kinda reminded me of swiss cheese...lots of holes.
But because of this I searched around the internet and found this site that explains the process of making a sourdough starter with better clarity and detail: http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=starterprimer
In the end I'm not sure I will have the patience for babysitting sourdough starter/culture. Its considerably more involved, at every stage, than I thought it would be...and although life in the refrigerator slows the starter culture down some it doesn't eliminate the need to keep feeding and caring for it on a regular basis.
Although I'm sure the flavor difference between dry yeast pizza dough, my end game goal, and sourdough pizza dough, is big...the convenience of using dry or cake yeast is probably going to win out for me even at the expense of flavor.
Just my $.02
But because of this I searched around the internet and found this site that explains the process of making a sourdough starter with better clarity and detail: http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=starterprimer
In the end I'm not sure I will have the patience for babysitting sourdough starter/culture. Its considerably more involved, at every stage, than I thought it would be...and although life in the refrigerator slows the starter culture down some it doesn't eliminate the need to keep feeding and caring for it on a regular basis.
Although I'm sure the flavor difference between dry yeast pizza dough, my end game goal, and sourdough pizza dough, is big...the convenience of using dry or cake yeast is probably going to win out for me even at the expense of flavor.
Just my $.02
I have a starter that I got from my grandmother that is from here in CA and supposedly 100+ years old. I neglect it for months at a time in the fridge. Then when I feel like making something with it I pull it out and feed it. If it has been a really long time I may have to feed it for several weeks before it is ready to use but it always comes back.
I usually use it to make the waffle recipe on the king author flour website
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sourdough-waffles-or-pancakes-recipe
I usually use it to make the waffle recipe on the king author flour website
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sourdough-waffles-or-pancakes-recipe
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Faux-coccia
So I made some Cruiserdrew Faux-coccia(sic) tonight with the sourdough starter that was great. My son said it was the best bread he has ever had.
Here's the deal...
I built the starter in 3 feedings from 100gm to roughly 500gm at 1:1. Then let this slow ferment in the fridge at 36 degrees for 4 days. Starting this morning, the starter went in the mixer with roughly 150 gm more bread flour and enough water to look like a bread dough. First rise for 2 hours, then divided in half and second rise for 3 hours in the 10 inch steel skillet. THis was a high hydration dough, I'd estimate near 85% based on how sticky it was.
At the end of rise #2, it was docked with a fork, then olive oil, sea salt, rosemary, thin sliced onions and some thin sliced garlic. It still rose too much in the middle and wasn't exactly flat but it was damn good.
No commercial yeast used, the rise was all from the starter, it just takes a bit longer. It was baked in the skillet on a pizza stone at 450 degrees until it was done. (This is a judgement call, and you have to stay with it. Roughly 18 minutes)
Faux-coccia because it's all the same dough. Pizza dough, focaccia dough, and ciabatta dough are all basically the same thing. Just minor differences in how you treat it, how long you let it rise, etc. The sourdough just brings the flavor especially with a long cold ferment.
For Spresso-in the end, the poolish/biga/what ever was about 2/3 of the final dough. Makes for great flavor and a good rise. The nice part about this culture is that it's active and not that sour.
The second half of this dough is going to be a pizza later this week.
So I made some Cruiserdrew Faux-coccia(sic) tonight with the sourdough starter that was great. My son said it was the best bread he has ever had.
Here's the deal...
I built the starter in 3 feedings from 100gm to roughly 500gm at 1:1. Then let this slow ferment in the fridge at 36 degrees for 4 days. Starting this morning, the starter went in the mixer with roughly 150 gm more bread flour and enough water to look like a bread dough. First rise for 2 hours, then divided in half and second rise for 3 hours in the 10 inch steel skillet. THis was a high hydration dough, I'd estimate near 85% based on how sticky it was.
At the end of rise #2, it was docked with a fork, then olive oil, sea salt, rosemary, thin sliced onions and some thin sliced garlic. It still rose too much in the middle and wasn't exactly flat but it was damn good.
No commercial yeast used, the rise was all from the starter, it just takes a bit longer. It was baked in the skillet on a pizza stone at 450 degrees until it was done. (This is a judgement call, and you have to stay with it. Roughly 18 minutes)
Faux-coccia because it's all the same dough. Pizza dough, focaccia dough, and ciabatta dough are all basically the same thing. Just minor differences in how you treat it, how long you let it rise, etc. The sourdough just brings the flavor especially with a long cold ferment.
For Spresso-in the end, the poolish/biga/what ever was about 2/3 of the final dough. Makes for great flavor and a good rise. The nice part about this culture is that it's active and not that sour.
The second half of this dough is going to be a pizza later this week.
I made another batch of Neapolitan dough last week using, per your recommendation Andy, 300g (1/3 total dough batch) French sourdough starter. 4-day fridge condition...good rise; easy to work but somewhat soft and fragile.
Honestly the taste just didn't justify all the effing around...must be off the mark with it, dunno. Or gotta be 2/3 starter to get a flavor boost maybe.
Honestly the taste just didn't justify all the effing around...must be off the mark with it, dunno. Or gotta be 2/3 starter to get a flavor boost maybe.
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
The soft and fragile thing is weird. There is so much gluten the the bread flour that is makes this easy.
Hard to know. You may need more salt. I hit the upper end of the recommendations, most of the time. I assume you're using bread flour and not the nasty bleached and bromated stuff--"The four of death" in Jeff V's website. I've been using the King Author Bread Flour and it's worked, so I don't deviate.
I have some plans to branch out into whole wheat flour. This starter has been doing such a good job for me, I'm going to make some regular old sandwich bread and see what happens. But seriously, I've never had such good pizza dough, and pretzels, and then this Focaccia was just over the top.
edit--THey did say that French starter is mild and not very sour. Maybe it's just a yeast culture? Make a big batch and let it sit overnight on the counter and then a week in the fridge and see what happens. My sourdough isn't that sour either, but it does have a great depth of flavor and an excellent consistancy.
Yep...always have used 100% KA UB Bread Flour. FWIW: I saw NobHill had SF sourdough dry starter on the shelf in Salinas the other day.
Ok...over the past month I've continued to experiment with sourdough starters. Thanks to Cruiserdrew for 'righting my ship' and contributing some Italian starter 
.
So...while I shift from French sourdough starter to the Italian for my first experiment with same for pizzas next week (made the Neapolitan pizza dough this morning...resting in the fridge)...I decided to, once again take Andy's lead for sourdough waffles...with one caveat.
Backstory: Originally I made my sourdough starters from unbleached white flour but since I've upped the % of starter to flour for my Neapolitan pizza dough, to ~50%, I've swapped in unbleached KA bread flour, to fortify the dough per Jeff's Neapolitan pizza dough that calls for higher protein content for the flour.
Ok...back to caveat
. So this morning I felt like embarking on my maiden sourdough waffle test. Using the Italian starter that is mostly made up of the higher protein content bread flour I fabbed up a few waffles this morning. I think calling them Neapolitan Sourdough Waffles sums up the results 
In much the same way the higher protein flour helps give Neapolitan pizza crusts that wonderful exterior crust and recognizable crumb chew its impart to my waffles was similar: The waffles had a nice exterior crust with a nice interior crumb chew...not tough but as the Italians say: Al Dente. I followed Ed Wood's recipe for sourdough whole wheat waffles; however I was out of WW and subbed UB flour; a solid waffle recipe BTW.
Some might view the additional "Neapolitan" waffle texture a little too much...but I actually like it. Will need to experiment a bit more before opting for two starter cultures, only differentiated by the type of flour used in the cultures.
.So...while I shift from French sourdough starter to the Italian for my first experiment with same for pizzas next week (made the Neapolitan pizza dough this morning...resting in the fridge)...I decided to, once again take Andy's lead for sourdough waffles...with one caveat.
Backstory: Originally I made my sourdough starters from unbleached white flour but since I've upped the % of starter to flour for my Neapolitan pizza dough, to ~50%, I've swapped in unbleached KA bread flour, to fortify the dough per Jeff's Neapolitan pizza dough that calls for higher protein content for the flour.
Ok...back to caveat
. So this morning I felt like embarking on my maiden sourdough waffle test. Using the Italian starter that is mostly made up of the higher protein content bread flour I fabbed up a few waffles this morning. I think calling them Neapolitan Sourdough Waffles sums up the results In much the same way the higher protein flour helps give Neapolitan pizza crusts that wonderful exterior crust and recognizable crumb chew its impart to my waffles was similar: The waffles had a nice exterior crust with a nice interior crumb chew...not tough but as the Italians say: Al Dente. I followed Ed Wood's recipe for sourdough whole wheat waffles; however I was out of WW and subbed UB flour; a solid waffle recipe BTW.
Some might view the additional "Neapolitan" waffle texture a little too much...but I actually like it. Will need to experiment a bit more before opting for two starter cultures, only differentiated by the type of flour used in the cultures.
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Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Woah-those looks great. Not too dense?
I hope you like the Italian starter. It's supposed to be from some Abby in Tuscany. Who knows, though, it could be floor sweepings from the cafeteria at the Fiat plant.
I also have another Italian culture from Ischia. That is supposed to be THE classic pizza dough culture. I have not gotten it going because I don't want two at one time. I can really only make bread/dough/pizza/breadsticks once per week anyway.
But speaking of bread, here's an experiment from last weekend:
I baked it in an open top dutch oven (Inside the real oven of course). The DO was supposed to be closed, but the dough was too big, rose too much and so I could not employ the lid. That would have made the top crust nice and chewy instead of crusty. I got a bit carried away and the final dough amount was 1.3kg!
I hope you like the Italian starter. It's supposed to be from some Abby in Tuscany. Who knows, though, it could be floor sweepings from the cafeteria at the Fiat plant.
I also have another Italian culture from Ischia. That is supposed to be THE classic pizza dough culture. I have not gotten it going because I don't want two at one time. I can really only make bread/dough/pizza/breadsticks once per week anyway.
But speaking of bread, here's an experiment from last weekend:
I baked it in an open top dutch oven (Inside the real oven of course). The DO was supposed to be closed, but the dough was too big, rose too much and so I could not employ the lid. That would have made the top crust nice and chewy instead of crusty. I got a bit carried away and the final dough amount was 1.3kg!
^ looks good Andy. No the waffle texture was chewy but not tough...hard to describe other than similar difference comparing Neapolitan and New York style pizza dough.
When I fold separated and whipped egg whites into a waffle batter they end up considerably lighter in texture...and normally for me I prefer a little more body to my waffles. But using the folded-in egg whites and the bread flour starter made them perfect for what I want in a waffle...YMMV. But light and super duper tender...not quite...but not heavy laden and tough either
I ordered a pkg of SF starter from Ed this week...going to get it going for more pizza experimentation...may be a bust who knows.
If you make it down sometime we'll have to try your bread recipe in the ceramic BBQ/cooker...
When I fold separated and whipped egg whites into a waffle batter they end up considerably lighter in texture...and normally for me I prefer a little more body to my waffles. But using the folded-in egg whites and the bread flour starter made them perfect for what I want in a waffle...YMMV. But light and super duper tender...not quite...but not heavy laden and tough either
I ordered a pkg of SF starter from Ed this week...going to get it going for more pizza experimentation...may be a bust who knows.
If you make it down sometime we'll have to try your bread recipe in the ceramic BBQ/cooker...