Swamper Groove/Sipe Poll (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Fochdog
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Here's my last set of 36x13 bias ply TSL.
Next set will be closer to D but the grooves will be more more massiver
Yummy, love the smell of burning rubber
Next set will be closer to D but the grooves will be more more massiver
Yummy, love the smell of burning rubber
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it don't matter
Here's some things I've run. I don't think you'll notice much difference in any of those pics you showed.
Kenton
Here's some things I've run. I don't think you'll notice much difference in any of those pics you showed.
Kenton
Kenton is running CORR takeoffs.....they do lots of groove options for their race trucks, and are very affordable.
Grooved tires will fail a good DOT inspection every time.....guaranteed....
I ran the D pattern on my SX's and it definitely helped the tire wrap obstacles better. The siping made a major improvement in the wet traction on rock as well. That would get my vote.
I did 3/8" wide grooves, and about 2/3 tread depth on those. Sipes were not even that deep. I did not touch the outer lugs, if you do extreme rock work, you'll lose enuf lugs without making them smaller (I had one large one that was nearly sheared away....)
Figger 30 minutes plus to do each tire with the standard hand groover. Best to do the tires new, since the rubber with harden with use, and made the process more difficult.
Grooved tires will fail a good DOT inspection every time.....guaranteed....
I ran the D pattern on my SX's and it definitely helped the tire wrap obstacles better. The siping made a major improvement in the wet traction on rock as well. That would get my vote.
I did 3/8" wide grooves, and about 2/3 tread depth on those. Sipes were not even that deep. I did not touch the outer lugs, if you do extreme rock work, you'll lose enuf lugs without making them smaller (I had one large one that was nearly sheared away....)
Figger 30 minutes plus to do each tire with the standard hand groover. Best to do the tires new, since the rubber with harden with use, and made the process more difficult.
- Thread starter
- #7
I would echo Woody for the reasons I am looking to groove/sipe my tires. Let the tire flex more at lower pressure, since the inner lugs are so large. Also add more "biting edges" for wet rocks or wet/snowy/icey road when running to or from the trail.
Has anyone ever been nabbed for a DOT inspection ... if so what happended?
I like the CORR tires. Are they easy to find or get?
Has anyone ever been nabbed for a DOT inspection ... if so what happended?
I like the CORR tires. Are they easy to find or get?
Leave 'em alone.
Unless you intend to cut them prettty deep and wide...then I would leave them alone.
I don't think that anything less than a "radical change" in the tread pattern will gain you much except to increase the chance of "chunking".
I have found that how (hard) or (soft) the rubber compound is, and tire pressures have more to do with getting flexibility and traction than just about anything else.
Except when you're in mud the "contact patch" of the tire is so small that I doubt a little siping does much other than look cool.
just my .02
Unless you intend to cut them prettty deep and wide...then I would leave them alone.
I don't think that anything less than a "radical change" in the tread pattern will gain you much except to increase the chance of "chunking".
I have found that how (hard) or (soft) the rubber compound is, and tire pressures have more to do with getting flexibility and traction than just about anything else.
Except when you're in mud the "contact patch" of the tire is so small that I doubt a little siping does much other than look cool.
just my .02
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Have never "been nailed" by DOT since mine aren't dd and rarely see pavement
Flint - I would not expect grooving to help much on dry rocks - similiar to why my rock climbing shoes are smooth and don't have lugs. But it will help a buttload when you get mud in between the rocks etc. Plus the siping is a help when dealing with wet rock. So it depends more on where you are wheeling.
Flint - I would not expect grooving to help much on dry rocks - similiar to why my rock climbing shoes are smooth and don't have lugs. But it will help a buttload when you get mud in between the rocks etc. Plus the siping is a help when dealing with wet rock. So it depends more on where you are wheeling.
I tend to agree with Flint, that the rubber compound and tire pressure will serve to vary your grip on various surfaces far more than adding grooves. Will the grooves add some slight grip here and there at a given tire pressure? I'd say yes, but then you have to ask the opposite question - will the grooves cause a reduction in slip here and there at a given tire pressure? I'd also have to say yes.
Against this you'd have to consider other downsides like tire wear, road traction and tread block damage as likely side effects. Overall, it seems like a reasonable case could be made that the grooving is a marginal +/- impact.
As for the siping (smaller slits vs removed material for grooves) I'd recommend it if wet/snow/ice traction is an issue as there's little debate on the improvements there for both the road and trail. Unfortunately, you didn't have a choice for this, so might be moot.
DougM
Against this you'd have to consider other downsides like tire wear, road traction and tread block damage as likely side effects. Overall, it seems like a reasonable case could be made that the grooving is a marginal +/- impact.
As for the siping (smaller slits vs removed material for grooves) I'd recommend it if wet/snow/ice traction is an issue as there's little debate on the improvements there for both the road and trail. Unfortunately, you didn't have a choice for this, so might be moot.
DougM
try flexing a 4x4 block of wood...now, cut some grooves 1/2 way thru, and it will flex significantly easier. The thick/heavy lugs of the Swampers definitely benefit from the grooving...I ran my SX's for over a year with sipes only, added the grooves later, and noticed a definite improvement in their ability to wrap around obstacles. Additionally, that added wrap in the center of the tire allowed me to run slightly higher tire pressure, which in turn helps control side-wall wrap induced wheel hop and also assists in steering and preventing the sidewall from rolling over due to low pressures.
You can test this easily with two tires side by side....air each down completely, push your fist into the un-grooved one, then into the grooved tire. The grooved tire will deflect further and wrap around your fist more than the stock one. This is totally because the smaller lugs allow the carcass to flex more since they aren't resisting the bending.
I experienced almost no chunking issues by grooving the center lugs. Those additional biting edges can be very helpful, and since there is less tire material actually contacting the flat rock surface, one can argue an increase in pressure per square inch of tire contact, and on some surfaces that's more important for traction than pure surface area.
It IS all a compromise, and expecting it to improve performance in all situations is impossible.
You can test this easily with two tires side by side....air each down completely, push your fist into the un-grooved one, then into the grooved tire. The grooved tire will deflect further and wrap around your fist more than the stock one. This is totally because the smaller lugs allow the carcass to flex more since they aren't resisting the bending.
I experienced almost no chunking issues by grooving the center lugs. Those additional biting edges can be very helpful, and since there is less tire material actually contacting the flat rock surface, one can argue an increase in pressure per square inch of tire contact, and on some surfaces that's more important for traction than pure surface area.
It IS all a compromise, and expecting it to improve performance in all situations is impossible.
- Thread starter
- #12
My main concern is chunking of the smaller tread blocks. But grooving/siping is so common with swampers that is probably not a real concern. This is why I was looking for some real world stories.
Grooving will make a significant change in flexibility of the tire ... second only to tire pressure. Think about how a round tire tread conforms to a flat ground contact patch. The tread blocks are all compressed together as it goes flat. With the added grooves this lets more room for the tread blocks to compress together. So you are in effect squishing air and not rubber ... less compressive force = more flex.
In my case the siping is as much for cr*ppy winter roads in Michigan as wet muddy rocks at Paragon.
I have read that siping swampers will help with tread wear and noise. Not my main reason but a nice bonus.
Grooving will make a significant change in flexibility of the tire ... second only to tire pressure. Think about how a round tire tread conforms to a flat ground contact patch. The tread blocks are all compressed together as it goes flat. With the added grooves this lets more room for the tread blocks to compress together. So you are in effect squishing air and not rubber ... less compressive force = more flex.
In my case the siping is as much for cr*ppy winter roads in Michigan as wet muddy rocks at Paragon.
I have read that siping swampers will help with tread wear and noise. Not my main reason but a nice bonus.
I've been resisting posting here because this grooving thing has become trendy and such and I'll sound like a stick in the mud. Ah well.
Grooving the tread blocks will have an infinitesmal impact on the flexibility of a tire. I'm talking about grooving, not siping which I support. I've done a bit of tire research from the factory perspective, so I'm somewhat familiar with this stuff though by no means a tire engineer.
If anyone's ever held a piece of tire tread rubber in their hands, they'll understand this. You'll sometimes see these samples at tire shops. This is just the tread, not the underlying carcass. So, take a foot long piece of it and drop it on the floor. It is so flexy it will fall and double over with no problem - laying there like a wet noodle. It has practically zero structural stiffness. Now groove it and drop it on the floor. Slightly more floppy and slightly more like a wet noodle. When you're talking about the change in flexibility of a strip of rubber from the perspective of a downforce of 1500lbs there is just not much to talk about.
Most of us get our impression of the stiffness of a tread block in a tire shop by pushing it around with a thumb, grabbing it and trying to get a feel for it. Me too - I confess. But remember that tread block is attached to an underlying structure of belts and the tire carcass that completely change the way it feels. Remember those beveled pencil erasers from school - you could double them over and such? That's how flexy a tread block is. Now glue it down to the floor and suddenly it seems inflexible and like grooving it would help it flex. But I'm here to tell you that the tread blocks already contribute almost nothing to the stiffness of your tire. Almost.
So, yeah grooves will help a tread block flex. But you'd have to use lots of decimal points to measure it with a slew of instruments in a lab. You're going to get much more change with air pressure and rubber compound in terms of tire flex and grip.
DougM
Grooving the tread blocks will have an infinitesmal impact on the flexibility of a tire. I'm talking about grooving, not siping which I support. I've done a bit of tire research from the factory perspective, so I'm somewhat familiar with this stuff though by no means a tire engineer.
If anyone's ever held a piece of tire tread rubber in their hands, they'll understand this. You'll sometimes see these samples at tire shops. This is just the tread, not the underlying carcass. So, take a foot long piece of it and drop it on the floor. It is so flexy it will fall and double over with no problem - laying there like a wet noodle. It has practically zero structural stiffness. Now groove it and drop it on the floor. Slightly more floppy and slightly more like a wet noodle. When you're talking about the change in flexibility of a strip of rubber from the perspective of a downforce of 1500lbs there is just not much to talk about.
Most of us get our impression of the stiffness of a tread block in a tire shop by pushing it around with a thumb, grabbing it and trying to get a feel for it. Me too - I confess. But remember that tread block is attached to an underlying structure of belts and the tire carcass that completely change the way it feels. Remember those beveled pencil erasers from school - you could double them over and such? That's how flexy a tread block is. Now glue it down to the floor and suddenly it seems inflexible and like grooving it would help it flex. But I'm here to tell you that the tread blocks already contribute almost nothing to the stiffness of your tire. Almost.
So, yeah grooves will help a tread block flex. But you'd have to use lots of decimal points to measure it with a slew of instruments in a lab. You're going to get much more change with air pressure and rubber compound in terms of tire flex and grip.
DougM
IdahoDoug,
No offense dude, but that is just plain and simple hogwash.
How can you compare a mounted swamper with a piece of rubber lying on the floor? That's like saying a slider made out of .120 wall is useless because if you hold a 1"x.120" bar in your hands you can bend it. As Derrick Coleman would say "whooptiedamndo".
Why is grooving becoming "trendy"? Well, first it is not "becoming trendy" it has been for a little while now, but people do it because it works.
Have you ever tried it?
I have and have noticed a huge increase in performance.
Sorry dude, but whatever research you are doing is not quite complete and therefore you are jumping to a premature conclusion.
No offense dude, but that is just plain and simple hogwash.
How can you compare a mounted swamper with a piece of rubber lying on the floor? That's like saying a slider made out of .120 wall is useless because if you hold a 1"x.120" bar in your hands you can bend it. As Derrick Coleman would say "whooptiedamndo".
Why is grooving becoming "trendy"? Well, first it is not "becoming trendy" it has been for a little while now, but people do it because it works.
Have you ever tried it?
I have and have noticed a huge increase in performance.
Sorry dude, but whatever research you are doing is not quite complete and therefore you are jumping to a premature conclusion.
unfortunately, no one I know has had the luxury of owning 2 sets of identical new tires and being able to compare them in identical situations, one grooved, one not.
Never knew I was trendy....time to take the groover to the IROK's next then
Never knew I was trendy....time to take the groover to the IROK's next then
Junk,
You're missing my point. I'm not comparing a mounted swamper with a piece of rubber. I'm comparing a piece of rubber (A) with the same piece of rubber that has grooves in it (B). You're not putting grooves into the swamper's structure - only into the layer of rubber that's on it, after all. The grooves ONLY affect the slab of rubber that's on the outside of the tire carcass - nothing more. That slab of rubber is already so flexible it can be doubled over upon itself with ease.
You're getting more flex out of a piece of rubber with the grooves (B). Agreed. But what's the difference to flex it with the grooves? Mere ounces. That's my point - again.
DougM
You're missing my point. I'm not comparing a mounted swamper with a piece of rubber. I'm comparing a piece of rubber (A) with the same piece of rubber that has grooves in it (B). You're not putting grooves into the swamper's structure - only into the layer of rubber that's on it, after all. The grooves ONLY affect the slab of rubber that's on the outside of the tire carcass - nothing more. That slab of rubber is already so flexible it can be doubled over upon itself with ease.
You're getting more flex out of a piece of rubber with the grooves (B). Agreed. But what's the difference to flex it with the grooves? Mere ounces. That's my point - again.
DougM
IdahoDoug,
Nope. I'm still calling hogspoit on your theory. No offense dude, you are entitled to it (as if I'm anyone to say you're not anyway), but you are still talking about a piece of rubber where we are talking about true experience in a grooved tire.
Sorry dude, theorize all you want, but it works and works well.
Nope. I'm still calling hogspoit on your theory. No offense dude, you are entitled to it (as if I'm anyone to say you're not anyway), but you are still talking about a piece of rubber where we are talking about true experience in a grooved tire.
Sorry dude, theorize all you want, but it works and works well.
Well, you've always been about the bling, and now even more so since you got an 80woody said:unfortunately, no one I know has had the luxury of owning 2 sets of identical new tires and being able to compare them in identical situations, one grooved, one not.
Never knew I was trendy....time to take the groover to the IROK's next then
Once you've tried the groove you'll never go back.
I've run my swampers ungrooved and grooved both siped and unsiped. In any condition I've been in, dry roads, wet roads, dry sliclrock, wet slickrock, dry, granite... See where I'm going?
The grooved tires have worked better in every condition I've driven them in. That's in a welded and detroited rig.
Whatever *theory* makes it not work is trumped by real world testing in my case. Nut up and cut'em!
I've run my swampers ungrooved and grooved both siped and unsiped. In any condition I've been in, dry roads, wet roads, dry sliclrock, wet slickrock, dry, granite... See where I'm going?
The grooved tires have worked better in every condition I've driven them in. That's in a welded and detroited rig.
Whatever *theory* makes it not work is trumped by real world testing in my case. Nut up and cut'em!
Whatever works is the bottom line. Perfect case in point is the bumblebee. According to contemporary flight modeling it should be unable to fly, yet they're happily buzzing about blissfully unaware that what they're doing is not possible. So I can certainly agree with you guys.
As for real world testing, I should tell you that I've participated in instrumented testing of various tire tread configurations, tread patterns, tire pressures, speeds, temperatures, downforces, lateral forces, compounds, on and off water films, on and off artificial ice, etc. I've also done some study of the tire contact patch to ground interface. And I've participated in offroad tire evaluations for Toyota on SoCal trails (uninstrumented). While none of that testing was in any way intended to test the theory of offroad traction changes by adding grooves to tread blocks, it has given me a reasonable grasp of how this change might impact offroad traction.
One suggestion I would offer with grooving is to avoid using heat at all costs as this will harden the rubber and mitigate whatever change you're achieving in traction. This is one reason I'm behind siping as it uses a cold blade vs some of the handheld hot cutting tools for tire grooving.
DougM
As for real world testing, I should tell you that I've participated in instrumented testing of various tire tread configurations, tread patterns, tire pressures, speeds, temperatures, downforces, lateral forces, compounds, on and off water films, on and off artificial ice, etc. I've also done some study of the tire contact patch to ground interface. And I've participated in offroad tire evaluations for Toyota on SoCal trails (uninstrumented). While none of that testing was in any way intended to test the theory of offroad traction changes by adding grooves to tread blocks, it has given me a reasonable grasp of how this change might impact offroad traction.
One suggestion I would offer with grooving is to avoid using heat at all costs as this will harden the rubber and mitigate whatever change you're achieving in traction. This is one reason I'm behind siping as it uses a cold blade vs some of the handheld hot cutting tools for tire grooving.
DougM