Strange home wiring problem (mud curse?)

[scottm]

Daughter's new house, built in '78. Breaker 13 has 90V on the switched lug when it's off, but only when breaker 24 on the opposite leg is on. Breaker 24 has 10V on the switched lug when it's off, but only when breaker 13 is on. When both breakers are off, they both have zero volts. When only one of the two breakers is on, the doorbell chime buzzes. The doorbell 16V transformer is on breaker 13, which appears to be a dedicated microwave circuit going up through the attic to the kitchen. Breaker 24 goes to the basement family room, the two circuits don't seem to go anywhere near each other.

Anyone have any thoughts on what's going on? The ground rod looks solid and connected to the box, no aluminum wires, everything looks normal.

 

[NaterGator]

When both breakers are on?

And assuming logical numbering convention, breaker 13 is on a different phase from breaker 24?

 

[cruiseninak]

Who you gonna call?

 

[WristPin]

do you have a fire extinguisher and how large is your biggest hammer?

i suggest you use both

 

[Bogo]

Which way are they counted? Side to side from top to bottom or left column, then right column? I'm making the assumption it is the former otherwise you are compairing a 240VAC circuit to a 120VAC circuit, and a doorbell transformer would not be wired to a 240VAC circuit.

Check the wiring for a short between the wires for #24 and #13. It may be through the doorbell wiring.

You could swap breakers and see if it follows the breaker or stays with the wiring. Just swap breakers of the same amperage.

If it was my place, I'd replace the whole panel with a Square D QO line one. I don't like panels not having a mains circuit breaker.

 

[Bogo]

When both breakers are on?

And assuming logical numbering convention, breaker 13 is on a different phase from breaker 24?

If you look in the empty slots in the middle you can see the structure of the buses. This box has each horizontal row on one leg, and the supplying leg alternates from row to row. Any way you number it, #13 and #24 are on different legs.

 

[Joe_E]

You need the un-drunk toy4x4.
Good luck with that.

 

[toy4xfun]

is that a sub panel ?

 

[fsusteve]

Which way are they counted? Side to side from top to bottom or left column, then right column? I'm making the assumption it is the former otherwise you are compairing a 240VAC circuit to a 120VAC circuit, and a doorbell transformer would not be wired to a 240VAC circuit.

Check the wiring for a short between the wires for #24 and #13. It may be through the doorbell wiring.

You could swap breakers and see if it follows the breaker or stays with the wiring. Just swap breakers of the same amperage.

If it was my place, I'd replace the whole panel with a Square D QO line one. I don't like panels not having a mains circuit breaker.

agree, I think you have a short between the bus bars but I'd swap that panel out.

 

[scottm]

Odd numbers on the left, even on the right. #24 is the bottom right, #13 is the fourth from the bottom on the left. The breakers aren't near each other, so I'm not sure how the busses could be shorted together without affecting a whole lot more than these two. Yeah I'm hating the panel, but not eager to spend my daughter's money right now, they're trying to get this house together on a budget.

It looks like when each circuit is off and powered somehow by the opposite circuit, the off circuit shows 90V until a load is put on it, then it drops to around 10V. Seems like a weak connection between them. I know voltage can transfer when two wires are run parallel, like a simple transformer. I wonder if the doorbell wire might be picking up power this way and the doorbell transformer (on the left of the breaker enclosure) transforming it up? Just guessing at this point. Looking for an electrician, the guys I work with are machine electricians.

Since they bought the house this week, I'm thinking the PO and the home inspector ought to be contacted on this. I think the PO did the wiring, and he's been very eager to get things fixed, still coming back to install a new basement window.

Appliances coming this week, I'd like to install the microwave, but not with this going on.

 

[fsusteve]

did they already have the home inspection? I'd be calling that guy if that's the case, many places offer warranties on repairs if they missed it.

 

[toy4xfun]

scottom, is that the main panel or sub panel!

if it is the main panel where is the service disconnect?

 

[sparkplug]

Just rename breaker #13 to #41. That should fix it.

 

[toy4xfun]

scott if the wires coming in the top of the panel come straight from the meter, then that panel is not in conformance to the NEC, if there is a disconnect outside or any where else that is the main service, and that is the only place the grounded and grounding systems should be bonded, from that point on they have to be separate, so once again not up to NEC, the bar that the neutrals and grounds are landed on, is an isolated bar, so the neutrals should stay there the grounds should go on a ground bar connected directly to the panel, if the neutral bar, has a bond screw in it remove it when you move the grounds.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Check neutrals connections in panel. Look fora common j box where the wire are getting crossed due to a bad s-plice. Just cause they go to different places in the house, does not mean they never make it into the same box.....

 

[scottm]

Just the one bar, top left, for ground and neutral, attached to the panel. The copper ground wire runs outside to a clad ground rod in the ground next to the power meter, and up to the copper water pipe above. No disconnect anywhere, I figure I'd have to grab the meter off the riser to kill power, kinda scary. I don't like this whole setup, but apparently it's up to code, but I'll be touching base with the home inspector on that. If it's not, his arse is kinda on the line, so I'm expecting him to be fairly cooperative 'till he knows what's going on.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Are there 2 wires landed on breaker 13? Can't tell from pic.....

 

[toy4xfun]

it has to have a disconnect, usually a main breaker in that panel.


NEC 230.70

 

[scottm]

Check neutrals connections in panel. Look fora common j box where the wire are getting crossed due to a bad s-plice. Just cause they go to different places in the house, does not mean they never make it into the same box.....

I think you mean look around the house for a box where both circuits are present. I looked carefully at the basement circuit, #24, was able to follow it around in the basement ceiling and found no other circuits passing near. I did find one switch with switched neutral and electrical tape with no wire-nuts on the joints. Very amateurish, everything else looked professional. I took out the switch and connected the wires properly, it was just to an outlet they must have wanted a switch for. Most boxes have writing on the studs describing what the box is for, arrows to where they run. More writing above the drop ceiling where wires drop to switches. Every phone and coax connection is similarly labelled, seems like someone made significant effort on this, I think it was the PO.

Circuit #13, microwave, just runs up into the basement ceiling, and the microwave wire in the kitchen runs up also, most of the wiring runs in the attic. I haven't gotten into the attic, looked up there, it's low and unfinished, would be hard to move around up there.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

I think you mean look around the house for a box where both circuits are present. I looked carefully at the basement circuit, #24, was able to follow it around in the basement ceiling and found no other circuits passing near. I did find one switch with switched neutral and electrical tape with no wire-nuts on the joints. Very amateurish, everything else looked professional. I took out the switch and connected the wires properly, it was just to an outlet they must have wanted a switch for. Most boxes have writing on the studs describing what the box is for, arrows to where they run. More writing above the drop ceiling where wires drop to switches. Every phone and coax connection is similarly labelled, seems like someone made significant effort on this, I think it was the PO.

Circuit #13, microwave, just runs up into the basement ceiling, and the microwave wire in the kitchen runs up also, most of the wiring runs in the attic. I haven't gotten into the attic, looked up there, it's low and unfinished, would be hard to move around up there.

ALL funky wiring was done by the PO. It is funky cause they did not get an electrician to do it or to tell them how. Also, if it were easy to track down and you didn't hafta crawl thru cabbage to find out what's up, then I wouldn't be able to charge money for what I do..... just sayin. Keep looking or bring someone in. You'll never find it w/ that attitude about the tight space or getting discouraged and frustrated- No offense.