Soft Shell vs. Hard Shell condensation Q (1 Viewer)

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Northern Michigan
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www.thesurrealmccoys.com
A few months ago I spent some time in CO and it was in 30’s at night. I just got done w/ 10 days here in Northern Mi and it was in the mid to low 20’s at night.

I have a Tepui Ayre w/ a anti-condensation mat.

In the morning there would be frost under the mat on the floor of the Tepui. If I folded up to move locations, melted frost would drip down onto the folded mattress.

I’d sleep w/ roof screens fully open below rainfly. Side screens 1/2 open and each end 1/2 open.

the underside of the rain fly would be frosted over in the am. Creating further moisture issues if I had to fold the tent up to move sites.

Curious if those who have had both soft and hard shell tents can comment on the condensation/frost build up in colder temps - is it better or worse for hard shell? Also - any condensation differences between a fully pop-up hard shell like a Tepui HyBox and a clam style like a Roofnest Sparrow.
 
One other Q - the condensation on the floor of the Tepui below the anti-condensation mat seems to follow the contours of where my body was on the mattress.

I have a Big Agnes inflatable pad for when I’m camping on ground. Would placing the Big Agnes on top of the Tepui Mattress help this issue by creating distance between my warmer body and the freezing floor of the Tepui tent?
 
Figure out how to stop breathing to prevent condensation.

Canvas tents are the solution to your problem. That and a wood stove.
 
My Tepui Ayer is coated 600 denier and a 260g poly-cotton blend so it’s kinda-canvas. I don’t want a heater in the tent. The sleeping bags I have have been fine so far down to 22 degrees.

My Q is for folks that have camped in both hard and soft shells. I know what the underside of my rainfly looks like after a cold night. I’m trying to picture what the underside of the hard shell Maggiolina or RoofNest look like after a similar night.

in short - is the condensation battle worse in hard or soft shells....
 
ignore previous comment, he's just a ground dweller 🤣 busting your chops

Airflow is the key to condensation, but finding the balance between airflow and heat retainage is the tricky part. We've always experienced some condensation under our mattress pads (in ground tents, soft and hard shell RTT), so it just becomes a maintenance thing if you need to pack up and move on. Bring a pack towel and wipe down the surface under the mattress as needed. Set up your tent at the new destination and allow it to breathe a bit before climbing in (if possible).
 
ignore previous comment, he's just a ground dweller 🤣 busting your chops

Airflow is the key to condensation, but finding the balance between airflow and heat retainage is the tricky part. We've always experienced some condensation under our mattress pads (in ground tents, soft and hard shell RTT), so it just becomes a maintenance thing if you need to pack up and move on. Bring a pack towel and wipe down the surface under the mattress as needed. Set up your tent at the new destination and allow it to breathe a bit before climbing in (if possible).

I was actually trying to help him out.

Anything with nylon, is going to condense. Physics. Canvas breaths and water vapor can escape.

I spent 3 weeks hiking in the wind rivers in a MH nylon tent. Even during the summer with venting, it still has some condensing on cold morning when the dew point in the tent exceeded the outside dew point. If I could stop breathing, which lowers the dew point, it would not condense.

Now I also have a huge canvas wall tent with stove. You can put 6 smelly dudes with snoring problems in there and even if the fire goes out, no condensation.

So really there are 3 courses of action...
1. Balance the dew point inside to match the outside.
2. Use canvas that breaths.
3. Use a wood stove to evorapte the condense.
 
I guess I don't know why these roof top tents don't use canvas. It really is the best material for tents, but granted, it is more maintenance.
 
In general, hardshell material doesn't breathe as easily as softshell material. The tradeoff is that hardshell material tends to be better at keeping moisture out. You said that your RTT is a coated poly-cotton. That coating is typically a polyurethane. It provides flexible water resistance, but it isn't known to be terribly breathable.

Canvas (at least the unwaxed variety) does breathe. The tradeoffs are that it's heavy, it absorbs water from both sides, it isn't water resistant (unless it's waxed), its susceptible to mold unless it's dried properly, and it stops being breathable once it is saturated with moisture. It's not a particularly good shelter material, except in cases where an interior heat source is used.

In my experience with 3 and 4 season tents, the only thing that really prevents condensation is ventilation. That creates an issue. A tent with too much ventilation wont stay very warm. What you tend to see in 4 season tents are lots of vents that can be opened or closed depending on wind direction, temperature, occupants, etc. Assuming your RTT has adequate ventilation for the conditions you're using it in, it's probably a matter of messing with your vents until you figure out what works for you. You probably wont ever 100% eliminate the condensation though.
 
The condensation occurs where the cold air meets the warm air. Anything you can do to create a buffer between those spaces will help along with airflow. An air mattress between you and the tent floor would help. An air space between the tent and rain fly would help. Having a hard top without a rain fly might actually make it worse. The hard top doesn’t improve the r-value and is a poor insulator . It’s unlikely you’ll completely eliminate it without a heater to dry the air.
 
All hard shells I've looked at or used have a fabric liner on the shell roof structure. The condensation I've experienced in RTTs has always been on the fabric walls (or roof, if softshell). The shell on the floor can either be plastic or more typically laminated aluminum (alum skin/foam core/alum skin). Some of the nicer manufacturers will add an insulating layer of plastic material (honeycomb) and it will help with floor condensation under your mattress or sleeping pad. It's not 100% effective, but better than nothing. If it's a big deal, you might try adding another layer of airflow under the mattress - such as jute mat or wool blanket.
 
I have a Maggiolina Extreme RTT. The floor and ceiling of the tent is insulated, and the mattress is a 3" closed cell foam, all standard equipment.

I have NEVER had any issues with condensation building up. I've spent many a night in temps from the teens into the 20's in it. It's all about the material the tent is made of. The Maggiolina Extreme is built with "Dralon® synthetic" material, it is extremely breathable.

Just a few weeks ago while driving the White Rim Road, the temp dropped to 26 degrees, and the wind was blowing. I zipped the tent up tight (not a window cracked) to prevent any drafts ............ the tent was bone dry in the morning.

It's all about the ability of a tent fabric to breathe.

From the Autohome web-site,


AutoHome tent fabric specifications and ratings
Fabric evaluation criteria



"A very good fabric cannot be just waterproof (it would be unsuitable as a camping fabric), one of the main properties of tent fabric must be breathability. Each square centimeter of fabric should contribute to the natural exchange of internal and external air. This characteristic promotes occupant comfort that is achieved by fast effective exchange of air and water vapor. Breathability is critical in environments with small volumes of air and prevents condensation, which can cause heat reduction in the tent. The natural flow-through of internal air containing moisture generated by the occupants of the tent allows a comfortable environment to be maintained."
 
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I have a Maggiolina Extreme RTT. The floor and ceiling of the tent is insulated, and the mattress is a 3" closed cell foam, all standard equipment.

I have NEVER had any issues with condensation building up. I've spent many a night in temps from the teens into the 20's in it. It's all about the material the tent is made of. The Maggiolina Extreme is built with "Dralon® synthetic" material, it is extremely breathable.

Just a few weeks ago while driving the White Rim Road, the temp dropped to 26 degrees, and the wind was blowing. I zipped the tent up tight (not a window cracked) to prevent any drafts ............ the tent was bone dry in the morning.

It's all about the ability of a tent fabric to breathe.

From the Autohome web-site,


AutoHome tent fabric specifications and ratings
Fabric evaluation criteria



"A very good fabric cannot be just waterproof (it would be unsuitable as a camping fabric), one of the main properties of tent fabric must be breathability. Each square centimeter of fabric should contribute to the natural exchange of internal and external air. This characteristic promotes occupant comfort that is achieved by fast effective exchange of air and water vapor. Breathability is critical in environments with small volumes of air and prevents condensation, which can cause heat reduction in the tent. The natural flow-through of internal air containing moisture generated by the occupants of the tent allows a comfortable environment to be maintained."

This ^...... Check out the Autohome Grand Tour 360; Privacy mesh all around, fully breathable. I had one and it was extremely comfortable, only thing that made me sketched was on tight trails and close to trees, one wrong slip and ding, and the $4k tent is done. Testing an Alucab Gen3 now, but the Autohome spoiled me and I'm a little claustrophobic with the clamshell design, and I like the end to end space. Looking at the Bush Co. Black series as the final solution.
 
Agree with @BrewsterII

We have a James Baroud hard shell and do not have condensation problems in colder weather.

Our SoCal teardrop on the other hand condenses like crazy, even with the windows cracked and vent fan running.
 
I found a Maggiolina Adventure on ExPo and it’s currently strapped to a couple pallets heading to Northern MI. Once it gets here, the Tepui Ayer will shift over to a racked trailer Ive been building. The Maggiolina hard shell will go on the 60. I’m hoping the Maggiolina fares better. I had a couple nights in November that were in the 20’s. The hard base to the Tepui beneath the anti-condensation mat and the mattress had condensation that frosted over the area directly beneath my body. I had both roof panels unzipped and the side panels 1/2 unzipped. Plus the frozen condensation underneath the rainfly directly above the mesh roof panels I unzipped.

I have to imagine if I had zipped the whole thing up, it would have been dripping.... I was perfectly warm at those temps inside a sleeping bag that was inside another sleeping bag. I don’t get this whole diesel heater fad. I didn’t need a heater in 20 degree temps. Maybe it’s just that I’m self-insulating as a 6’4” 225 lb guy....?

Looking forward to some cold weather camping once the hard shell gets here.
 
Anytime you have sub freezing temps with a heat source inside the tent (aka, you body) some condensation will form unless you have active ventilation or can control the humidity levels in a tent (highly improbable). Ever see a window in your house fog up (condensate) while it's cold outside? That's due to the relative humidity and temp differential inside the house. So, like your tent, unless your house has 0% humidity condensation will form. I just don't see how you are going to have zero humidity in a tent. This is a Sisyphean battle.
:bang:
 
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