Series / Parallel Solenoid for 12/24 volts (1 Viewer)

[troopie]

Eric,

It kinda seems you've already made up your mind to use a 12/24 volt electrical system, but i have to agree with Rob on the KISS principal.
I myself kept all my electricals 24 volts so i can't really speak from personal experiance.
But i have two buddies with a 40 and a 45 who also have 12ht's in their rigs, one of them used an 80 series solenoid, which works, but the wiring is a mess even when it's cleaned up. To much to go wrong IMHO.
My other buddy went 12 volt all the way, using the original 24 volt starter but swapping the motor for a 12 volt minitruck one. His starts really easy, without any diffence to the 24 volt ones.
The other thing is that you need to get a 12 VSV or it will keep on running.
None of us uses the preheating system and they always start even when it's freezing.
Getting a 12 volt alt. with vacuum pump might be getting tricky, but you'll need that with a 12/24 volt system anyway.

I hope this makes any sense, cause my English isn't as good as it used to be.

Good luck with the swap.

Mark

 

[panoramic]

I have had a problem with that solenoid on my 80 for years. I'm not the only one. The biggest headache is that it isn't available locally except as a second hand part and truly, once cleaned up, you can't tell a good one from a bad one as they work well initially but usually stop working after a while. Buying them from Japan is also prohibitive as the cost is well beyond us.

The solution we've come up with is to do a direct feed of the starter from the two batteries. Please don't ask me for the wiring. I am totally ignorant. It seems to be an ok solution but I really have to wait to see if problems develop. The most immediate result is that the engine has returned to a one click start.

I was looking for a picture of the part involved, but I seem to have lost it. Sorry.


Kalawang

Hi Kalawang,
Thank you very much for the reply! I believe that AC/DELCO no longer produces this part. A replacement is available from HALDEX (USA & Canada) and other companies who produce aftermarket equivelants. In my massive quest, I actually spoke with an ex-DELCO employee who had worked in the factory remanufacturing the DELCO solenoids! He said that they were constantly being sent in from trucking customers. The contacts were wearing out and sticking from arcing. When I looked on DELCO's website, indeed they did not list this part. I am wondering if the failure was due to a poor DELCO design and the extremely heavy current and cycling demands of the large diesel delivery trucks they were constantly starting? I do not know.

Mainer7 has been using his CMS part in his rig for a year with no problems. Perhaps the manufacturing/engineering is better now? Perhaps his demands are much less than the big rigs? Perhaps Mainer7 has wired his solenoid in the system the same way you have? I will PM him about this question, maybe he can post his wiring for us.... I will also think about it.

I am wondering if the problem occured because the solenoid activation line was triggered by the same STARTER wire! This could a serious arc across the solenoid contacts and defintely shorten it's life.

I think it makes ALOT of sense to not use this relay to just ACTIVATE the starter. I intend to switch to 24 volts and THEN hit a starter button with the ignition key or a seperate switch.
That way, there should be no load and no arcing on this solenoid.

- Eric

 

[panoramic]

Plan and back-up plan.

Hmm,
decisions, decisions.

I am also a fan off KISS principles (especially when on the trail!).
But I am swayed by performance. Many other posts have mentioned that 24v ruled.
I wish I could hear/feel the difference of 12volt vs. 24 volt starters for myself. Is the mini-truck starter is from a DIESEL mini-truck? What engine is in that vehicle? Is the starter armature designed to crank an equivelent size engine?

The balance of my decision is to initially go with the 24 volt starter setup. I may purchase an extra starter housing and a mini-truck 12V armature as an experiment. I can dig around, but do you guys know which mini-truck starter assembly I need?

I assume VSV is Vehicle Stop Valve or some sort of 12v fuel/vacuum shut-off solenoid.
What part number is the 12V variety?

Thanks to all those who have replied to help me.

- Eric

 

[Radd Cruisers]

I spun over the 1HZ with high compression and twelve volt starter, compared to my 24 volt start 1HD-T, no difference in sound or starting time in milli seconds.

Both equaly sound strong and spin fast, of course I do run two batteries in the 1hz twelve volt, not sure if it makes a differencem, but toyota did so I will do it.

Rob

 

[troopie]

Eric,

The starter used was from a 2L diesel, i'm not sure if there is a difference between a 2L or a 22R starter motor.
Starting a 12ht isn't hard on the starter at all, it takes about halve a crank to fire it up, hell i pushed started my troopie by myself on level ground without to much efford on two or three occasions (remember not to let the lights on). Thats how easy they fire up.

I don't know any parts numbers for the VSV, but it shouldn't be to difficult to locate one at the pnp.

 

[Kalawang]

I spun over the 1HZ with high compression and twelve volt starter, compared to my 24 volt start 1HD-T, no difference in sound or starting time in milli seconds.

Both equaly sound strong and spin fast, of course I do run two batteries in the 1hz twelve volt, not sure if it makes a differencem, but toyota did so I will do it.

Rob

The 12 volt starter on the 1HZ is a perfect bolt in replacement for the starter on the 1HD-T. I am certain of this as Drexx borrowed one of my spare starters to try on his 1HZ, but his 1HZ only has one 12 volt battery so my starter didn't crank well enough to serve.

I also used a direct feed for about 3-4 months with no noticeable problem but I suffer from a need to maintain as original a configuration on my 80 as possible so I returned my wiring to orig and suffered accordingly because my starting problems returned. I tried adding a Bosch relay to the offending solenoid but that only worked for a month or 6 weeks before the problem came back. Replaceing the relay did not help.

The offending solenoid can be made to serve longer if you carefully pry it open with a good strong knife and clean the insides with a fair amount of electrical contact cleaner, refit the top and seal it with a wrap of belt tape. The top is only force fit so it only needs a little coaxing, but care should be taken not to excessively deform the top. I don't know how long this solution will last as I've only had it for 3 months, but so far so good. A plus side is that it's now easy to take the top off and clean the contacts again if needed, but I want to see how long this solution will last. A friend here is doing the direct wiring thing on his 1HD-T but that has only been about a month in use.

It's unfortunate that I failed to ask Drexx to let me try his starter on my 1HD-T as that is an alternative I might have to try if my solenoid fails again. However, as everything is working well on my 80 at the moment, I'm really reluctant to do anything more for now.


Kalawang

 

[roscoFJ73]

I spun over the 1HZ with high compression and twelve volt starter, compared to my 24 volt start 1HD-T, no difference in sound or starting time in milli seconds.

Both equaly sound strong and spin fast, of course I do run two batteries in the 1hz twelve volt, not sure if it makes a differencem, but toyota did so I will do it.

Rob

They do spin fast with one battery,believe me,and the 78/79 series are standard here with one battery.

Im using a 13 plate(I think) with 700cca in both cruisers.
The 73 series battery has been there for 14 months and going well.

The great thing about the 1HZ ,once glowed they should start almost instaneously.

 

[Kalawang]

Hi Kalawang,
Thank you very much for the reply! I believe that AC/DELCO no longer produces this part. A replacement is available from HALDEX (USA & Canada) and other companies who produce aftermarket equivelants. In my massive quest, I actually spoke with an ex-DELCO employee who had worked in the factory remanufacturing the DELCO solenoids! He said that they were constantly being sent in from trucking customers. The contacts were wearing out and sticking from arcing. When I looked on DELCO's website, indeed they did not list this part. I am wondering if the failure was due to a poor DELCO design and the extremely heavy current and cycling demands of the large diesel delivery trucks they were constantly starting? I do not know.

Mainer7 has been using his CMS part in his rig for a year with no problems. Perhaps the manufacturing/engineering is better now? Perhaps his demands are much less than the big rigs? Perhaps Mainer7 has wired his solenoid in the system the same way you have? I will PM him about this question, maybe he can post his wiring for us.... I will also think about it.

I am wondering if the problem occured because the solenoid activation line was triggered by the same STARTER wire! This could a serious arc across the solenoid contacts and defintely shorten it's life.

I think it makes ALOT of sense to not use this relay to just ACTIVATE the starter. I intend to switch to 24 volts and THEN hit a starter button with the ignition key or a seperate switch.
That way, there should be no load and no arcing on this solenoid.

- Eric

Eric,

Sorry I failed to respond to this post in timely fashion. Seems the direct wiring solution is fairly common for 12 volt systems with 24 volt starters. If you already have the offending solenoid, you might want to take note of my current remedy posted above. Otherwise, it's direct wiring pretty much the way you describe. I don't know how much of a problem cold starts are for you as I'm in a tropical environment, but with the problem I have with the offending solenoid, I did note that it tended to but did not always do so, right itself after the engine got cold. That characteristic might be true only for my solenoid as no others here reported such. More than likely it was just luck or my heavy duty prayers.

If my offending solenoid fails again, I intend to try a jury rigged set of 3 Bosch relays to serve the same function, or just buy a 1HZ 12 volt starter if I can first assure myself that it will truly start my engine with one click or even with a bit of cranking. Buying the after market parts from Canada or the USA is just as prohibitive cost wise for me as from Japan.


Kalawang

 

[Shad0wTr0n]

I realize this is an old thread and that I have a 3B but I thought it was worth a post.

I just put in my 24 volt starter today and it's awesome. I had a new starter lying around from a project that is currently on the back burner so when my starter died in my daily I figured it was worth a shot.

Toyota 24 Volt starter part#
28100-56071-84

The AC Delco solenoid was discontinued but I tracked down its replacement. The part #1119844 is now a Wilson part #60-01-3556

I also bought a 8 ft length of 1 gauge wire which I had leftovers of. From that I made two new wires and reused some of the stuff that was on the truck.

It took me a bit longer to wire up and install then I thought because I forgot to bridge the starter to the solenoid on the starter to make it 24 volt as well (see picture):

(That's the old starter, but I took off the small wire on the left and connected those together)

The final thing I did was use the wires going to the original starter relay to wire the new solenoid with (you won't need the old relay anymore).

It works awesome! In the cold winters I get here in Manitoba, Canada I don't think I'll have an issue starting anymore.