Saginaw PS pumps: Serp vs V-belt

[Cdaniel]

I have had 2 successive failures of new rebuilt PS pumps. Both within minutes of a start up. The 1st lasted longer than the 2nd by about 30 minutes.

The failure is the shaft bushing going away, wearing toward the direction of belt tension.

Yes there was fluid in there!

I'm thinking that my conversion to a serpentine drive system using a pump from a v-belt application has a fundamental problem in the pumps design.

Haven't been able to find much specifics on bearings in the interwebs.

What say the Mud collective?

 

[fieldsken1]

if they are rebuilt and from the same rebuilder maybe thats the problem. rebuilders will also have batches of rebuilt parts go bad before they notice. try a different brand. they could be using faulty bushings. V style pumps have been around for a long time and i am sure thats not the problem. changing to a serpentine belt is just a mater of changing the pulley on the pump. the pump is still the same

 

[inkpot]

I have had 2 successive failures of new rebuilt PS pumps. Both within minutes of a start up. The 1st lasted longer than the 2nd by about 30 minutes.

The failure is the shaft bushing going away, wearing toward the direction of belt tension.

Yes there was fluid in there!

I'm thinking that my conversion to a serpentine drive system using a pump from a v-belt application has a fundamental problem in the pumps design.

Haven't been able to find much specifics on bearings in the interwebs.

What say the Mud collective?

I know that the water pump changes rotation direction when you change between v belts and serpentines, but I don't think that is an issue with the power steering pump. Are you using a conventional serpentine tension pulley setup, or are you using the old style adjustable pump brackets? John

 

[Cdaniel]

Its a complete serp setup OEM style from a mid 90s Chevy truck. Pump certainly turns the same direction. I'm just wondering if the serp tensioner puts more load on the shaft than the v-belt style and the pump has a different bushing?

 

[fieldsken1]

I can get the v belt a lot tighter then the serp belt tensioner

 

[lefty b]

I might be wrong, but a serpentine doesn't NEED to be as tight because routing of the belt wraps around the pulleys more than a V and has active tensioning. Also, when the serp rides grooves down, it's a lot like a whole series of small V belts side by side. There is just a whole lot more belt contact with a serpentine

That being said, I agree with the earlier post that suggested a bad reman on the pump(s). There's a lot of scrap out there.

Just my 2c.

 

[Chachie]

I am told the pumps are not good. Can you locate an OEM and rebuild it?

 

[orangefj45]

What year pump are you using?

How are you installing the pulley?

I think the serpentine setup is a great way to go. We've retro-fitted a few early V8s with the oem Delco Serpentine kits from summit. Never had any issues.

Hth

Georg @ Valley Hybrids

 

[Cdaniel]

What lefty says about surface area is true and it makes sense that the tension would not be more.

Georg the year is unknown. Sourced as a reman long ago from the original ps conversion. Replaced once with a chain store reman. I usually say its a 77 truck at the counter. Pulley is pressed on and off with the proper tool.

This one was rebuilt along with the box by a local shop with a good rep. Maybe they went cheap on the source for bushings. Probably time to try another source.

 

[Cdaniel]

Update: Installed a Cardone reman pump. So far, so good. Got all the bubbles out, no leaks. Did a lot of comparison of different years and applications. It would seem the pumps are pretty much the same with the exceptions of 1 or 2 mount points, reservoir seal thickness and the pressure fitting. I know there are various flow control spring rates too, but have no idea where to get that info.

I ended up re using the spring and valve that was installed in my original reman pump as they are supposed to be sized for my box and use. I also got a mid 90's truck pump and swapped my original pressure fitting to it.

Now, I was extra careful to monitor fluid level this time and think I may have found my smoking gun. The past 2 times I started it with a full tank and it was still full after the leak and the engine was shut down.. This time I kept the cap off and a light in hand to watch. I shut it down immediately. I could see the fluid level cavitating a lot. probably enough to uncover the hole that feeds the bushing. Shut down and level is fine, over full even. So I filled the tank to the brim and ran it. The level stabilizes at a good level.

Not sure what to do with this. Running the fluid at this level wont be good off camber with the lame seal on the cap. A remote tank would be good, but wont work with the tank cap either.

Looking for alternate tanks........

 

[lcwizard]

If I read you right Cliff, you're looking for a tank you can run a remote reservoir with.. That would be a chevy van. Something like a '92 G-30. It should have a 3/4" return coming from a remote tank that you'll need to build. We ran a one gallon reservoir on the rock crawler to stop the boiling over of fluid.

 

[Cdaniel]

If I read you right Cliff, you're looking for a tank you can run a remote reservoir with.. That would be a chevy van. Something like a '92 G-30. It should have a 3/4" return coming from a remote tank that you'll need to build. We ran a one gallon reservoir on the rock crawler to stop the boiling over of fluid.

You are correct sir! Thanks for the tip
Vans in the bone yard are a rare breed, and with a motor still..... May have to spend a whole day on west Baseline.

 

[Tools R Us]

... I could see the fluid level cavitating a lot. probably enough to uncover the hole that feeds the bushing. ...

Not buying this as the cause, have seen them major abused without this type of failure? But it's over so, .

 

[Tools R Us]

You are correct sir! Thanks for the tip
Vans in the bone yard are a rare breed, and with a motor still..... May have to spend a whole day on west Baseline.

We have found them easy to find at pick & pulls, even Astro ones work? The pain is pulling the pump to get the soup can off. The reservoir is easy, 2 bolts, hanging right on the firewall, most of the ones without motors still have them. Looks like this:

 

[Cdaniel]

Not buying this as the cause, have seen them major abused without this type of failure? But it's over so, .

Nothing is ever over. So you're in the defective bushing camp I guess?

 

[Tools R Us]

Nothing is ever over. So you're in the defective bushing camp I guess?

Don't know, haven't seen it? Bad bushing, poor install, improper fitting, not enough oil clearance,,,, ? Not a big Saginaw fan so, don't have a ton of experience with them, but have never had a bushing war with them.

 

[Tools R Us]

If you are concerned about bleeding, drop the belt and run the pump with a VS drill, works great, total control.

 

[lcwizard]

You are correct sir! Thanks for the tip
Vans in the bone yard are a rare breed, and with a motor still..... May have to spend a whole day on west Baseline.

geez Cliff it's hot down there. Rock auto is 63.00 plus change reman ACdelco with reservoir...that includes the core....Brand spankin new is 184.00 with reservoir

 

[inkpot]

geez Cliff it's hot down there. Rock auto is 63.00 plus change reman ACdelco with reservoir...that includes the core....Brand spankin new is 184.00 with reservoir[/QUOTE

There's nothing as entertaining as browsing thru your favorite Pick N Pull when its 110 degrees. I always carry extra shop rags (and gloves of course) so I don't get fried. :whoops: I even carry 1/2 dozen frozen bottles of water. Gotta survive somehow!!

 

[Cdaniel]

geez Cliff it's hot down there. Rock auto is 63.00 plus change reman ACdelco with reservoir...that includes the core....Brand spankin new is 184.00 with reservoir

If you're suggesting that I've been a bit impaired by a melted brain. Guilty! But, I did lookup that very item on rockauto so a little gray matter remains. Trying to avoid much more money down hole. I've got 3 pumps at the moment. 1 installed, the original torn down for the bushing that I plan to repair for a spare. And a 3rd I picked up from NAPA but didn't install because the shaft looked wobbly when I put the pulley on. Looking to get a refund there.

I'm hoping to finish the exhaust on this project and actually drive it around soon to see what happens next.