Saginaw Power Steering conversion Using stock Smog on a FJ60

[Slow Left]

Hmm... MUD might have already answered my question about the a 'standard' fitting compatible with the M16x1.5...5/8!!!

This older thread already beat this horse to death:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/steering-box-fittings.405907/

So, that makes me think that what I've actually got on this JTO hose is not a M16x1.5 thread, but a standard 5/8"...which would be great news for you if it works...

 

[Slow Left]

So here's an interesting observation. In the bottom of the pressure port, there is a brass cone that looks suspiciously like the O-Ring to flare adapter I've seen, and I wonder if you took that brass fitting out (I've done it, get a rod close to the hole size and start wiggling it), if a standard M16x1.5 O-ring would fit.

Could be, as long as the tip (from the o-ring out to the tip of the fitting) isn't so long that it interferes with anything inside the box.

 

[Slow Left]

So here's an interesting observation. In the bottom of the pressure port, there is a brass cone that looks suspiciously like the O-Ring to flare adapter I've seen, and I wonder if you took that brass fitting out (I've done it, get a rod close to the hole size and start wiggling it), if a standard M16x1.5 O-ring would fit.

Or, if you remove the OEM brass fitting, insert a 'standard' (like say, a 37* flare that @Elbert mentions) brass fitting in it's place with the same OD as the OEM, but mates with a 'standard' inverted flare fitting on a 90* elbow tube, then you've just converted it to a 'standard' fitting...as long as the 5/8" threads on the new 'standard' fitting hold in the M16x1.5 female threads of the box...

 

[rickyrockrat]

DO NOT use 5/8 threads on the pressure port or the return (Return is the one we are likely talking about). It is a loose fit, and the first time it strips you will be looking at a new steering box.

The OP in that thread is right - the return line is a 17MM, and 5/8 Does not work. If you tighten it down enough to seal, you are very likely going to strip something. I agree, the engineer should be shot who used 17mm, but you can't interchange the two!

There is not anything to interfere with - the brass insert goes down in there, I suspect it does not work, or I would have used it, but now I wonder...

 

[Slow Left]

DO NOT use 5/8 threads on the pressure port or the return (Return is the one we are likely talking about). It is a loose fit, and the first time it strips you will be looking at a new steering box.

The OP in that thread is right - the return line is a 17MM, and 5/8 Does not work. If you tighten it down enough to seal, you are very likely going to strip something. I agree, the engineer should be shot who used 17mm, but you can't interchange the two!

Right, I saw that the return line uses a 17mm fitting. I'm pretty sure this is not the fitting I've been referring to. I've been referring to the high pressure hose that goes from the PS pump to the PS box. And I confirmed that the threads on the fitting of this JTO high pressure hose that screw into the box fit the M16x1.5 female thread, so either this male fitting on the JTO hose is M16x1.5 or 5/8" thread...assuming they are essentially interchangeable.

 

[Slow Left]

There is not anything to interfere with - the brass insert goes down in there, I suspect it does not work, or I would have used it, but now I wonder...

But remember that the face of the inverted male fitting will sit flush (when mated with it's opposite face of the brass ring) with the bottom of the hole that it screws into.

In the case of the o-ring fitting, there might additional 'stuff' between o-ring (which will make a seal with the lip upon which that brass ring sat?) and the tip of the fitting.

 

[Slow Left]

If the o-ring fitting you are referring to looks similar to the one below, then the female side on the box would need a 'chamfer' for the o-ring to make a seal with.

 

[Slow Left]

How about one of these fittings (over the 3/8" or -06 90* elbow tube) after removing that brass flare fitting from inside the female fitting on the box.

Since the o-ring on this SAE J1453 is in the face of the fitting, it will make a seal with the flat face where the now removed brass flare fitting sat. And get the 5/8" thread size, which should be a close enough fit for the M16x1.5 female threads on the box.

 

[rickyrockrat]

5/8 is .625, and 16MM= .629, (5/8 is smaller) and the threads are of concern. Assuming we have pressure the size of the ID 0.63 (and round to .6) gives you .282 in^2, so every 1000 PSI put 282 pounds on those threads, with peak somewhere near 600 pounds - engine weighs 950 pounds, for comparison. IMO, you just don't screw with the high pressure side, because once it is stripped, you are done. Let me rephrase that. I wouldn't do anything but the right thread on a pressure port.

Looking at the 3/8 part (-06), the male threads would not fit, since female 16MM is about .629, and the -6 is .690, no way it would go in the hole. The -04 is way too small.

I need to wiggle that brass fitting out and check to see if the o-ring end matches the profile on the brass fitting...Couldn't stand the suspense, so I got that brass adapter out of the steering box, and a standard 16MM O-ring hose WILL fit. The very end of the pipe has to be cut off to fit down there, because it is both flared and too long. 99% sure this will work, and I'm going to try it when I start getting my rock crawler back together.

 

[Slow Left]

Thanks for that - Went to http://www.discounthydraulichose.com, and they don't have a MIX-90-06-16MM end that I can find. It would be nice to find an adapter that isn't a daisy chained beastie.

Kon'nichiwa,

I have found out that the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) uses a 30* flare face angle (as opposed to the 37* flare face angle for the JIC or AN).

But, according to this information (see below), the threads used on the JIS are the same as BSP (British Standard Pipe).

However, another japanese standard, named Komatsu, is essentially the same as the JIS (so Komatsu also uses the 30* flare face angle) expect that it uses metric threads.

So, I am beginning to believe that the OEM fittings (on both the female port and male hose end) for the pressure port on the OEM FJ6X steering box are Komatsu fittings.

Which would mean searching for a Komatsu male 60* seat or Komatsu male 30* inverted flare to go over that 3/8" pipe (aka -06) 90* elbow...






Japanese Industrial Standard: This coupling looks similar to MJ and FJX fittings. There are two major differences - the threads are BSP and the seat angle is only 30-degrees instead of 37-degrees.

Komatsu: This fitting looks similar to the JIS fitting. The major difference - metric threads instead of BSP.

Japanese Tapered Pipe Thread: This connector has the same thread as BSPT and will mate with BSPT connectors. It will NOT mate with the BSPP female swivel because it lacks the 30 degree inverted seat. Flanges for most Japanese hydraulic equipment - including Komatsu - are standard Codes 61 or 62 except for -10. Some drop dimensions are slightly different and the O-ring dimensions are different. Be sure to use the SAE O-ring in the SAE flange when replacing a Komatsu flange.

Great Britain BSPP (British Standard Pipe Parallel): BSP is the most popular thread end in Great Britain. These threads are either parallel (BSPP) or tapered (BSPT). The male BSPP will mate with a BSPP (parallel female or a female port). The male BSPT will mate with the BSPP female swivel. The male has straight threads and a 30-degree inverted seat. The BSPP female has straight threads and a 30-degree inverted seat. The female port has straight threads and spotface. The seal on the port is made with an "O" Ring or a soft metal washer on the male. The BSPP connector is similar to, but not interchangeable with our FPX. The thread pitch is different in most sizes, and the thread angle is 55-degrees instead of the 60-degree angle found on NPSM threads.

BSPT (British Standard Pipe Tapered): The BSPT (tapered) male will mate with a BSPT (tapered) female and the BSPP female swivel. The BSPT male has tapered threads and a 30-degree inverted seat. The BSPT connector is similar to but not interchangeable with our MP. The thread pitch is different in most cases, and the thread angle is 55 degrees instead of the 60-degree angle found on NPTF threads.

Neither the British parallel pipe or the British tapered pipe has true metric threads, although many people find these threads "foreign" and conclude they must be "metric.”

From:
http://www.gates.com/products/indus...s/hydraulic-couplings/international-couplings

 

[Elbert]

why would you not simply go to AN style ? use the adapters for the steering gear, then adapt the GM/Saginaw pump to AN and you are good.... exactly what I have except on a v8.

IF you want everything to be stock....then you would stick with the OEM Pump I assume?

Or you can buy a PSC GM style p/s pump setup for remote reservoir that has a AN fitting made to it..no mod required....

 

[Slow Left]

why would you not simply go to AN style ? use the adapters for the steering gear, then adapt the GM/Saginaw pump to AN and you are good.... exactly what I have except on a v8.

IF you want everything to be stock....then you would stick with the OEM Pump I assume?

Or you can buy a PSC GM style p/s pump setup for remote reservoir that has a AN fitting made to it..no mod required....

It's not really a matter of allegiance/orthodoxy to stock (my rig is stock because I can't afford yet to do what I want to do with it), I'm just trying to figure out what I'm dealing with. The AN adaptor still has to have a fitting on it with the complimentary threads/standard to go into the OEM steering box.

Just a puzzle is all. Probably same messy approach that was taken to come up with the AN solution, just trying to see if there is a more direct route available...

 

[Slow Left]

Or you can buy a PSC GM style p/s pump setup for remote reservoir that has a AN fitting made to it..no mod required....

I really like this idea. I saw this post by @R.E.M. about the updgrade to drive a hydraulic winch:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/power-steering-upgrade-hydraulic-winch-part-1.762985/

In that post he decided not to power a PTO (and then use the PTO to power either the winch or whatever other accessory), and it got me wondering what the tradeoff would be for driving a PTO vs directly driving the winch...

 

[rickyrockrat]

why would you not simply go to AN style ?
IF you want everything to be stock....then you would stick with the OEM Pump I assume?

My reason for 'stock' doesn't mean stock to the car, it means any parts place stocks the hose...See further up the thread about being out in the boonies.
So if the AN style is a common hose on production cars, what are part numbers for hose and P/S. My goal was to find a cheap, millions of cars have it, hence it is cheap AND available hose/pump.

 

[rickyrockrat]

Kon'nichiwa,

What we REALLY need is some more stinking thread pitch and diameters - ooh, and of course some more mating surfaces. I mean what is wrong with a 40 degree flare?

 

[Elbert]

I really like this idea. I saw this post by @R.E.M. about the updgrade to drive a hydraulic winch:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/power-steering-upgrade-hydraulic-winch-part-1.762985/

In that post he decided not to power a PTO (and then use the PTO to power either the winch or whatever other accessory), and it got me wondering what the tradeoff would be for driving a PTO vs directly driving the winch...

I like hydraulic winches driven off a pump that is driven from the PTO. I personally am not a fan of a winch driven off the PS pump. I want the ps system to do one single thing...or maybe two..if I had hydro-boost (sp?) brake setup.

hardly anything beats a pto driven hydraulic pump driving a winch....but everything to make that work turns your truck into a nightmare... electric winches make the most sense for a number of reasons.

 

[Elbert]

My reason for 'stock' doesn't mean stock to the car, it means any parts place stocks the hose...See further up the thread about being out in the boonies.
So if the AN style is a common hose on production cars, what are part numbers for hose and P/S. My goal was to find a cheap, millions of cars have it, hence it is cheap AND available hose/pump.

no AN is not a common fitting for stock vehicles..... but the JIC hose ends mate right up to the -8 or -6 hose (can't recall which one right off hand. So you can have one made pretty much anywhere that makes hydraulic hose. I don't think you will find a OEM or Aftermarket ready hose that simply plugs in when you do a swap to a GM ps pump. As noted though you can have one built/made rather easy. But then again you need the adapters for the steering gear...but those are easy to get and once installed there you go (for An hose).

Once again the beauty of AN is that the JIC hydraulic fittings mate to them.....so anywhere usa that makes p/s hoses can make one up as along as you know the fitting orientation and length.

See post # 14 and other comments.

 

[Elbert]

It's not really a matter of allegiance/orthodoxy to stock (my rig is stock because I can't afford yet to do what I want to do with it), I'm just trying to figure out what I'm dealing with. The AN adaptor still has to have a fitting on it with the complimentary threads/standard to go into the OEM steering box.

Just a puzzle is all. Probably same messy approach that was taken to come up with the AN solution, just trying to see if there is a more direct route available...

Yeah but I think a number of low buck solutions have been mentioned. Sourcing stuff out of Japan is not low buck or something you get from the local store. Yes you will need some type of adapter when you start changing pumps or running different hoses..etc. Adapters are cheap and low tech and last...having a hydraulic hose made up with the JIC fittings is low tech and cheap too.

 

[rickyrockrat]

I don't think you will find a OEM or Aftermarket ready hose that simply plugs in when you do a swap to a GM ps pump. As noted though you can have one built/made rather easy.

I believe you can. ATSCO 7064 pump, power steering hose from a 1985-1986 Chevy C10 Pickup 4.3L engine, GATES Part # 356240. Assuming you have a hacksaw to cut the end of the steering box off by 1/8".

[QUOTE="Elbert]so anywhere usa that makes p/s hoses can make one up as along as you know the fitting orientation and length.[/QUOTE]
That's great if you have a place that can make them. I need carquest or Autozone or Bubba's Auto Parts in in the middle of nowhere to stock it.

Unfortunately JIS 30 degree flares are not easy to match. Just wish my rig was closer to completion so I can verify the M16x1.5 O-ring hose end will fit and seal on the stock steering gear once the 30 degree brass flare adapter is removed. In which case, it's real easy since there are tons of 16mm O-ring OEM pressure hoses. In fact, I'm seriously considering putting the thing on, chaining the pitman arm to the chassis, and see how well it works.

 

[Elbert]

I believe you can. ATSCO 7064 pump, power steering hose from a 1985-1986 Chevy C10 Pickup 4.3L engine, GATES Part # 356240. Assuming you have a hacksaw to cut the end of the steering box off by 1/8".

[QUOTE="Elbert]so anywhere usa that makes p/s hoses can make one up as along as you know the fitting orientation and length.

That's great if you have a place that can make them. I need carquest or Autozone or Bubba's Auto Parts in in the middle of nowhere to stock it.

Unfortunately JIS 30 degree flares are not easy to match. Just wish my rig was closer to completion so I can verify the M16x1.5 O-ring hose end will fit and seal on the stock steering gear once the 30 degree brass flare adapter is removed. In which case, it's real easy since there are tons of 16mm O-ring OEM pressure hoses. In fact, I'm seriously considering putting the thing on, chaining the pitman arm to the chassis, and see how well it works.[/QUOTE]




This board quotes are screwed up at times...My reply is below


hoses like this are not just made with the correct fittings on the end...the orientation of the fitting and design is critical (on the hose), with stock applications these are known factors. Depending on what type hose is used...many of theses hoses are not very flexible and so even if they have the right fitting on the end the fitting itself may not be in the correct orientation to line up for install. Sure it may work, but you don't know until you get the hose on the truck and start screwing around with it. The entire hose has to move with the fitting to get it to line up on the vehicle side fitting.

Dealing with AN hose fittings on both ends of the truck. You take a piece of scrap heater hose and cut it down to the approx length you need. You mark one end so you know which end that is relative to the truck. You figure out if you need 90 degree or 45 degree normal style fitting or if you need some other special style. You mark the orientation of the required fitting on both ends of the hose after your trial fit session. You then go down to the hose shop and get it made...using your heater hose as a template, and you probably should get a 2nd one made at the same time once you confirm its good.

You may get lucky in finding a stock made hose....but that will be pure luck. In my example I'm talking about -AN fittings on the pump and on the gear...I'm not aware of a GM product using that. Like noted you certainly need an adapter on the gear to cover to an style hose and the same on the GM pump. (I'm running exactly what I'm talking about....an aftermarket PSC GM ps pump that has a AN fitting on it so no need for an adapter and I run the an adapters on the steering gear) The whole idea is that most any shop can make a hose that will work if I need it.

I've not had good luck with the "make-it-yourself" p/s pressure hose...with russell hose and fittings...always getting leaks, so went down to hose shop and said make this (using my template method) 20min later I walk out with a old school hydraulic hose that mates to the an fittings and seals and looks like it will last 50 years.

The JIC hydraulic fitting on the hose seats down and seals on the p/s and gear AN fittings. IT works....I'm driving the "thing" now in such a configuration on the pressure side of the ps.