You're just making s*** up now.
Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts? (7 Viewers)
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He is absolutely just making s**t up.
Here's a graph from the Argonne National Laboratory showing lifetime emissions INCLUDING mineral extraction and manufacture.
Comparative life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of a mid-size BEV and ICE vehicle – Charts – Data & Statistics - IEA
Comparative life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of a mid-size BEV and ICE vehicle - Chart and data by the International Energy Agency.
www.iea.org
He is absolutely just making s**t up.
Here's a graph from the Argonne National Laboratory showing lifetime emissions INCLUDING mineral extraction and manufacture.
Comparative life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of a mid-size BEV and ICE vehicle – Charts – Data & Statistics - IEA
Comparative life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of a mid-size BEV and ICE vehicle - Chart and data by the International Energy Agency.
Even without looking at the hard evidence for it, it just intuitively it seems true that EV's have a net reduction in emissions.
Yes the batteries are mined; Yes they use power plans, but they don't emit anything when they are on. They also use power plants for energy, which range from like 60 to 90 percent efficiency, depending on the source, and can charge at off peak hours. There's also massive profit potential in scaling up battery recycling.
ICE's use mined material as well (albeit not as much) + need to refueled with something that is also not super great for the environment + they are not functional if they aren't pumping out as much emissions as clean air they are sucking in.
Alllll that being said I love my 3 land cruisers. I just also can accept reality easily, cause' my brain has wrinkles.
Show me on the doll where Musk hurt you.
Look man, I love my Land Cruiser pig too, but for starters, nothing you posted has merit in this conversation. An article from a biased media outlet (The Federalist) which attacks “democrats” in the headline is from go a problematic source if you want to bring facts to the table. Further, the two studies it cited don’t even support the argument the headline or you are purporting is true. The first study is about quality issues, not even environmental impact, and it’s claims are dubious, so it’s a stretch to imagine why it’s even included. The second study is about the power sources for charging infrastructure - its data is also questionable. But even if not, the more we develop renewable energy sources the less charging infrastructure depends on fossil fuels to feed the grid.
The second article cites THE VERY SAME study I cited but cherry picks data elements to tell a different story than the study tells itself. Yes, mineral sourcing is higher initially with EV batteries, but lifetime emissions are ALREADY far less (this from a 2020 study from IEA) and will continue improving in this department. The point it makes is that earthen scars are worse from open mines than oil extraction but says NOTHING about atmospheric implications. Again, this article isn’t good science and it doesn’t support your position.
Beyond that, an article that is titled “EVs might be more damaging than you think” doesn’t and isn’t trying to prove they’re more damaging than ICE vehicles, just that they aren’t pure as driven snow and cherubs and rosy cheeked babies.
You don’t have to like EVs or want one, but your negative bias is clearly showing and all it appears you’re doing is justifying your previously held position without having investigated it for accuracy.
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I love how people (both sides) post data from sites run by entities, that if you do your due diligence, actually have a financial interest in the side they are supporting. Seriously, if you look at the data that is represented, they take snippets of the data that supports their cause and ignore/leave out anything that doesn't. Then the people who support each side grab those snippets and run with it like puppets.
Kind of like the the climate change doomsdayers. Yes, the climate is changing, but the data, if you go back and look at all of it, says we aren't all going to die by 2025. Politicans and big business have been pushing alarmist crap for decades. NONE of their doomsday predictions have come true. NONE. This won't either. They get the people to do things through fear and crisis. It works. Stop being sheep and live your lives the way you see fit.
If you think the Rivian is cool, awesome....buy it. I think it's ugly as ****. My opinion. I'd drive a Tesla...I'm just not ready to invest in one. Battery tech and the whole hydrogen tech keeps me on the fence. I'll wait for more refinement or a clear winner.
Kind of like the the climate change doomsdayers. Yes, the climate is changing, but the data, if you go back and look at all of it, says we aren't all going to die by 2025. Politicans and big business have been pushing alarmist crap for decades. NONE of their doomsday predictions have come true. NONE. This won't either. They get the people to do things through fear and crisis. It works. Stop being sheep and live your lives the way you see fit.
If you think the Rivian is cool, awesome....buy it. I think it's ugly as ****. My opinion. I'd drive a Tesla...I'm just not ready to invest in one. Battery tech and the whole hydrogen tech keeps me on the fence. I'll wait for more refinement or a clear winner.
I agree with you generally, but not all research or parties that cite environmental/atmospheric impact are generated by or used to promote doomsday prophesies. There are a lot of reasonable people just toiling to make things a little better than they’ve been. I personally like the R1S and see it as the only (theoretic) alternative to my 200 Series in terms of space and capability, but I’m with with that I need to see a decade of excellent performance and good corporate support before I fork over $100k to anyone for anything.
Yes, it was a generalization but fairly accurate for the most part. The whole "97% of climate scientists agree" argument is total bs. People use it all the time and don't even know what it is about and how bs it is. It is made up and skewed to fool and sway the masses. Why would public figures, political figures, big tech use this all the time when it is absolute bs? Money. If it doesn't make sense, follow the money...then it will.
'97% Of Climate Scientists Agree' Is 100% Wrong
Think about how many times you hear that 97 percent or some similar figure thrown around. It’s based on crude manipulation propagated by people whose ideological agenda it serves. It is a license to intimidate.
www.forbes.com
There is no good reason to get rid of ICE vehicles....none at all. Developing alternatives? Awesome...I'm all for it. Live and let live.
Just a general follow up from my comment on Rivian and Lucid if anyone cares. Lol! I basically said Lucid is a poorly run company “running out of cash” and they do make a great product, well at least I thought they did. Now reports are coming out of a recall that the cars are bricking and now they are laying off 18% of its entire workforce. What‘s really funny, I saw a Lucid Air owner at Tesla the other day when i was just leaving from a test drive and couldn’t believe my eyes when i saw it the following day on the side of the freeway waiting for the flatbed to load it. I wonder if it had a flat or is one of the recall vehicles now being investigated.
Rivian certainly has a better chance of survival once they can manage costs of production and actually expand and build more service centers like Tesla. The trucks are pretty ugly in my opinion but they still game in with a great overall vehicle with some hiccups to expected from a new car company. Tesla is still having issues but like the once anti-Tesla Sandy Munro has stated, Tesla is generations ahead of the competition and after test driving many EVs, I sense he might be right. I am going to create a YT channel of actual unbiased anti-fanboy Tesla ownership experience.
Rivian certainly has a better chance of survival once they can manage costs of production and actually expand and build more service centers like Tesla. The trucks are pretty ugly in my opinion but they still game in with a great overall vehicle with some hiccups to expected from a new car company. Tesla is still having issues but like the once anti-Tesla Sandy Munro has stated, Tesla is generations ahead of the competition and after test driving many EVs, I sense he might be right. I am going to create a YT channel of actual unbiased anti-fanboy Tesla ownership experience.
I referenced Munro and Toyota fawning over Tesla earlier as well. I don’t think we can put Tesla in a bucket with any other EV at the moment. And im so far from a fanboy its not even funny. They are an engineering first type of company though. Like the famous steve jobs line… that kind of matters.
Rivian is a bit sketchy right now. The Amazon funding will dry up because they seriously over invested in infrastructure during the pandemic. I guess everyone thought that its was an economic boom? Lol. Dont mind me im one of those “broken clocks”
. You know, one of those people who believed in the inflation “fairy tale” before the entire planet had to accept the reality? Lol
Anyway point is we are entering a gigantic downturn, and most of the riff raff will be wiped out. Including all these propped up EV startups.
Also great morning coffee thread! I especially love that there are people with multiple cruisers advocating for EVs! Like im shopping for, i think its a great companion for the big and thirsty LX. I don't believe I’m saving the planet or anything. I just like the fact i can “fill it up” at home every night. Im real lazy and stuff, and I don’t like getting mugged at the gas station.
Rivian is a bit sketchy right now. The Amazon funding will dry up because they seriously over invested in infrastructure during the pandemic. I guess everyone thought that its was an economic boom? Lol. Dont mind me im one of those “broken clocks”
. You know, one of those people who believed in the inflation “fairy tale” before the entire planet had to accept the reality? LolAnyway point is we are entering a gigantic downturn, and most of the riff raff will be wiped out. Including all these propped up EV startups.
Also great morning coffee thread! I especially love that there are people with multiple cruisers advocating for EVs! Like im shopping for, i think its a great companion for the big and thirsty LX. I don't believe I’m saving the planet or anything. I just like the fact i can “fill it up” at home every night. Im real lazy and stuff, and I don’t like getting mugged at the gas station.
Agree. The biggest reason for us getting an Ev is the simple fact of fueling up at home and using the ev for everyday tasks. Also, havignn Tesla service down the street helps push us towards Tesla. Not having to deal with a dealership is a major bonus.I referenced Munro and Toyota fawning over Tesla earlier as well. I don’t think we can put Tesla in a bucket with any other EV at the moment. And im so far from a fanboy its not even funny. They are an engineering first type of company though. Like the famous steve jobs line… that kind of matters.
Rivian is a bit sketchy right now. The Amazon funding will dry up because they seriously over invested in infrastructure during the pandemic. I guess everyone thought that its was an economic boom? Lol. Dont mind me im one of those “broken clocks”
Anyway point is we are entering a gigantic downturn, and most of the riff raff will be wiped out. Including all these propped up EV startups.
Also great morning coffee thread! I especially love that there are people with multiple cruisers advocating for EVs! Like im shopping for, i think it’s a great companion for the big and thirsty LX. I don't believe I’m saving the planet or anything. I just like the fact i can “fill it up” at home every night. Im real lazy and stuff, and I don’t like getting mugged at the gas station.
Edit- also yuuuuge bonus is being able to keep the car nice and cool while I’m in the store or whatever in the summer and I can leave my dog in car “Dog Mode” big win!
I was specifically talking about your 99% bull**** claim. You gonna own being wrong on that?
Gotta tell you, I have owned quite a few Audis - RS4, RS6, Allroad 2.7, Allroad 4.2, S8 v10. Except for the RS6, which was bulletproof from a reliability standpoint, every other car was great until 75k miles then all were a total disaster. Engines, transmissions, and suspension were the issues. Ownership ended at that point for all (except for the RS6) due to a $7-10k repair estimate for some major component at about 75k.
I will never even consider another Audi / VAG other than Bentley.
All of these are right wing or libertarian news sources with a well known conservative slant. I’m a life long Republican but I’d stick with the facts.
All this being said, I see a lot of broken down Range Rovers, BMW X5 and X7s as well.
You're spot on. And I wouldn't even call it a conservative slant, I think that doesn't do justice to the fact that it's either deliberately misleading. What is clear is that there's an agenda influencing it and that the integrity of the information provided and the source information is compromised. Journalism has standards and a code of ethics, media does not. Just because something is dressed up to look like journalism doesn't mean it is so.
One thing I never see in the studies of how green the EVs are over their life as compared to ICE is what is the carbon footprint of recycling / disposing of the spent batteries. I have done some research into this and it ain't pretty. But, for some reason, that little tidbit is never included in the discussion. Plus, you have to drive an EV 15,000 - 20,000 miles to get to the break even point before it starts to have less carbon footprint than an ICE.
www.reuters.com
www.politifact.com
arstechnica.com
Even Consumer Reports dodged the question by saying that once the batteries are done in the car, they are used for home and business power supplies. That is all well and good, but what when the battery is done? What then?
Currently, the batteries are glued together with epoxy. You can't just take them apart and re-use the components when done. Current methods are to incinerate them and then gather up the "ash" and separate out the recyclable components or dissolve them in a very powerful, nasty and toxic acid and then again separate out the reusables. Then, the rest of the toxic sludge has to be disposed of. Or, the batteries are just dumped in a land fill. None of these options seem to be "environmentally" friendly to me, but then what do I know?
I would love to have a vehicle with an electric traction motor as they are ideal for that purpose. But where do you get the electricity from? That is where I have a problem.
I have to wonder if all this money and research going into EVs was instead used to find ways to make ICEs more adiabatic and have an efficiency upwards of 60% to 70% or more, what you that do in "saving" the environment?
For now, petroleum is the life blood of the planet. I think we should use it as efficiently as possible. I can't see a world where every country's seacoast and every hilltop is lined, several rows deep, with wind turbines and every piece of vacant land is paved over with solar panels. What would be the carbon footprint of that?
Many places are starting to add on extra fees to EVs for the lack of paying a gas tax. You know that state has to keep the money coming in.
I wouldn't mind a hybrid version of the Land Cruiser. That might be interesting. Toyota has the hybrid thing down pretty well.
Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?
You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet.
Offsetting emissions from producing electric cars
Electric cars aren’t perfect. Producing and transporting them requires energy, and that means buying one has a carbon fo
www.politifact.com
New EV vs. old beater: Which is better for the environment?
EVs require more energy to build, but they are far more efficient to operate.
arstechnica.com
Even Consumer Reports dodged the question by saying that once the batteries are done in the car, they are used for home and business power supplies. That is all well and good, but what when the battery is done? What then?
Currently, the batteries are glued together with epoxy. You can't just take them apart and re-use the components when done. Current methods are to incinerate them and then gather up the "ash" and separate out the recyclable components or dissolve them in a very powerful, nasty and toxic acid and then again separate out the reusables. Then, the rest of the toxic sludge has to be disposed of. Or, the batteries are just dumped in a land fill. None of these options seem to be "environmentally" friendly to me, but then what do I know?
I would love to have a vehicle with an electric traction motor as they are ideal for that purpose. But where do you get the electricity from? That is where I have a problem.
I have to wonder if all this money and research going into EVs was instead used to find ways to make ICEs more adiabatic and have an efficiency upwards of 60% to 70% or more, what you that do in "saving" the environment?
For now, petroleum is the life blood of the planet. I think we should use it as efficiently as possible. I can't see a world where every country's seacoast and every hilltop is lined, several rows deep, with wind turbines and every piece of vacant land is paved over with solar panels. What would be the carbon footprint of that?
Many places are starting to add on extra fees to EVs for the lack of paying a gas tax. You know that state has to keep the money coming in.
I wouldn't mind a hybrid version of the Land Cruiser. That might be interesting. Toyota has the hybrid thing down pretty well.
True true no doubt. But BMW has the cash to stick around and makes pretty nice, well built upper models. Range rovers and Bimmers have built the cult following over the years, while Lucid was meant to tackle Tesla and failed. It will be interesting next fall to see if Lucid and Rivian will survive higher interest rates, tighter lending and burning billions in cash. Lucid lost $2.6b last year, while Rivian lost $6.8b. More losses coming this next quarter
One thing I never see in the studies of how green the EVs are over their life as compared to ICE is what is the carbon footprint of recycling / disposing of the spent batteries. I have done some research into this and it ain't pretty. But, for some reason, that little tidbit is never included in the discussion. Plus, you have to drive an EV 15,000 - 20,000 miles to get to the break even point before it starts to have less carbon footprint than an ICE.
Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?
You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet.
Offsetting emissions from producing electric cars
Electric cars aren’t perfect. Producing and transporting them requires energy, and that means buying one has a carbon fo
New EV vs. old beater: Which is better for the environment?
EVs require more energy to build, but they are far more efficient to operate.
Even Consumer Reports dodged the question by saying that once the batteries are done in the car, they are used for home and business power supplies. That is all well and good, but what when the battery is done? What then?
Currently, the batteries are glued together with epoxy. You can't just take them apart and re-use the components when done. Current methods are to incinerate them and then gather up the "ash" and separate out the recyclable components or dissolve them in a very powerful, nasty and toxic acid and then again separate out the reusables. Then, the rest of the toxic sludge has to be disposed of. Or, the batteries are just dumped in a land fill. None of these options seem to be "environmentally" friendly to me, but then what do I know?
I would love to have a vehicle with an electric traction motor as they are ideal for that purpose. But where do you get the electricity from? That is where I have a problem.
I have to wonder if all this money and research going into EVs was instead used to find ways to make ICEs more adiabatic and have an efficiency upwards of 60% to 70% or more, what you that do in "saving" the environment?
For now, petroleum is the life blood of the planet. I think we should use it as efficiently as possible. I can't see a world where every country's seacoast and every hilltop is lined, several rows deep, with wind turbines and every piece of vacant land is paved over with solar panels. What would be the carbon footprint of that?
Many places are starting to add on extra fees to EVs for the lack of paying a gas tax. You know that state has to keep the money coming in.
I wouldn't mind a hybrid version of the Land Cruiser. That might be interesting. Toyota has the hybrid thing down pretty well.
Ive said many times, the batteries we currently have are stone age level technology.
But a lot of what you wrote is easily solved with nuclear power.
Which ironically is a fancy steam engine lol.
I don't personally don't care for any of the politics involved, but i will say both sides lean heavily into their camp rhetorics.
Pushy EV people are just as annoying as those who swear it will never work. They are not as clean as they are touted to be and involve a s***load of actual slave labor.
I dont think they should be disregarded though, we will have batteries that will change the game in big ways sooner than later.
Its just right now, its too rosey a picture being painted, and too pessimistic on the other side of the isle.
Even though im as cynical as it gets, and know for a fact we dont have nearly the plant and grid capacity for EVs (as much as gov is shoving them down our throats they are woefully unprepared), i still like having both at this juncture.
Its nice to have diverse systems, as a systems architect, why would i refuse that option.
