Recurring Brake Issue

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A

anthracite

Joined
May 14, 2018
Threads
2
Messages
37
Location
Newburgh, IN
Hi all,

I've done some searching on here and can't seem to narrow down the issue. I have a 2011 200 series with 153K miles on it. I've always maintained my vehicles throughout the years. When we bought the rig it had 96K miles and the dealership (Honda) that we purchased it from used non-OEM brake rotors and I assume pads all the way around. I replaced those (front) at 120K miles with DBA slotted rotors and their regular street pad (not the heavy weight/towing pad). Keep in mind the is primarily my wife's car that I drive on the weekends for family events, etc. We noticed some brake shudder/jitter/shimmy about 2-3 months ago, which slowly got worse over time to the point where it was very noticeable. The shudder could be felt through the brake pedal and eventually to the point where the entire truck would pulsate as the brakes were depressed. It felt like pad imprinting, which is also what some think warped rotors feel like.

The DBA pads were very short on life with not much pad material left so I ordered all new Toyota front brake pads and rotors and replaced them today. The hub was a bit rusty so that was cleaned off. Mounted the wheels at 90 Ft/lbs as I am running the TRD RW wheels with conical lugs. I'm also running 285/70/17 BFG KO2 tires as well, with roughly 45K miles on the clock. They are worn, but have plenty of tread left, probably 15-20K miles remaining. I take the rig out to burnish the pads/rotors and immediately notice the same shimmy, although much less severe, upon the first deceleration/braking event. I continued to burnish the brakes and the shimmy is there, albeit much less pronounced, but it is there, which is disappointing. I have to wonder what would cause this with brand new pads and rotors.

Sticky caliper? When I installed the new pads I used a c-clamp to draw the pistons in and didn't have any crazy resistance. Perhaps this is still a problem and warrants further investigation. These are not expensive to replace.
Worn tie rod? Possible at this mileage.
Worn suspension bushing - upper or lower control arm - also possible.
All terrain tires? I have them aired up to 40psi cold or 44-45psi when up to temperature. Could the all terrain tires cause the braking events to not be as smooth as they may be with normal tires? - also possible.

I'm also contemplating replacing the rear rotor and pads as well, although I've never seen an issue with the rear braking system since they aren't responsible for much braking force and the front does 80% of the work.

My hope is that someone else with a 200 series may have had a similar experience and have some suggestions.

Thank you,

Steve
 
I am experiencing the same issue as well. My last replacement of all the rotors and pads pretty much cleared it up, but it is back again. I am going to check the runout on the hubs next week. My original thought was a sticky caliper that was causing some heat/imprinting problems, but with a thermal camera I am not seeing a huge difference in temp from one wheel to another.
 
montegofd3s said:
I am experiencing the same issue as well. My last replacement of all the rotors and pads pretty much cleared it up, but it is back again. I am going to check the runout on the hubs next week. My original thought was a sticky caliper that was causing some heat/imprinting problems, but with a thermal camera I am not seeing a huge difference in temp from one wheel to another.
Click to expand...

Good point on the thermal temperature gauge. I have an infrared one and will take it along with me next time I trouble shoot. We’ll see if the temps are similar in both sides. If not, it must be hub/bearing related or suspension. With 153K miles, things are beginning to wear out.

Steve
 
You might be surprised how much effect the rear brakes can have on pulsation. The front brakes do more of the work, sure, but they make the rear stuff smaller in light of that. Meaning the rears can hit similar temps even if they are doing less work. And temps are ultimately what sets the stage for imprinting.

I’d definitely give changing them a shot. With brand new rotors up front and what sounds like good attention to detail on install, I don’t see how it can be the front axle still.
 
Thanks, gents. That will be the next step.

Steve
 
What I'd do:

Make sure the wheel bearings and tie rods are not sloppy with the traditional tests (jack up front end, pull wheels at 3:00/9:00;6:00/12:00; pry on ball joints with a prybar checking for play). This takes some practiced feel, so if you haven't done it, maybe have a friend help that has experience here, or take it to a brake and alignment shop.

Next, ditch the DBA stuff and put factory brakes back on. I think you said you did this on the front only, but I may not be reading it right. If so, do the rears too.

Since it is cheap enough and easy to do, I'd baseline with new factory pads and rotors front and rear, with new slider hardware/boots (properly lubricated) and slight lubrication (very slight, using high temp brake caliper grease) on contact points between pads and hardware. You can measure runout at this point. Make sure you torque lugs to the sec got the rims (as you noted, RW lugs have a different spec). Torque them in a star pattern with a torque wrench, not a torque stick. Bed the pads properly.

I've had a vehicle where the rear slider pins grease was old and it was sticking/prevented smooth movement of the rear calipers. Now, I always service the sliders, grease and boots whenever I do the rears. I keep a spare set of the rubber boots (actually front and rear brake hardware) on the shelf as spares at all times. I find the Centric hardware to be acceptable quality and much less expensive than OEM.

This gives you a clean slate to work from before chasing other things. A sticking caliper may get hot enough that you can tell the difference. Replacing calipers isn't that cheap, I have a set of four ready to go on my '16 and I think it ran $500 in parts on sale, and I will not have any labor costs since I'll do it myself. I've run AT tires on my 200s for years now, have never had an issue - not to say you might not be having a tire related issue, but unless you have other reasons to suspec the tires, they woudn't be high on my troubleshooting list. You could try rotating them to see i the relative location of the problem moves?
 
Last edited:
CharlieS said:
What I'd do:

Make sure the wheel bearings and tie rods are not sloppy with the traditional tests (jack up front end, pull wheels at 3:00/9:00;6:00/12:00; pry on ball joints with a prybar checking for play). This takes some practiced feel, so if you haven't done it, maybe have a friend help that has experience here, or take it to a brake and alignment shop.

Next, ditch the DBA stuff and put factory brakes back on. I think you said you did this on the front only, but I may not be reading it right. If so, do the rears too.

Since it is cheap enough and easy to do, I'd baseline with new factory pads and rotors front and rear, with new slider hardware/boots (properly lubricated) and slight lubrication (very slight, using high temp brake caliper grease) on contact points between pads and hardware. You can measure runout at this point. Make sure you torque lugs to the sec got the rims (as you noted, RW lugs have a different spec). Torque them in a star pattern with a torque wrench, not a torque stick. Bed the pads properly.

I've had a vehicle where the rear slider pins grease was old and it was sticking/prevented smooth movement of the rear calipers. Now, I always service the sliders, grease and boots whenever I do the rears. I keep a spare set of the rubber boots (actually front and rear brake hardware) on the shelf as spares at all times. I find the Centric hardware to be acceptable quality and much less expensive than OEM.

This gives you a clean slate to work from before chasing other things. A sticking caliper may get hot enough that you can tell the difference. Replacing calipers isn't that cheap, I have a set of four ready to go on my '16 and I think it ran $500 in parts on sale, and I will not have any labor costs since I'll do it myself. I've run AT tires on my 200s for years now, have never had an issue - not to say you might not be having a tire related issue, but unless you have other reasons to suspec the tires, they woudn't be high on my troubleshooting list. You could try rotating them to see i the relative location of the problem moves?
Click to expand...
Good points on all. I just ordered new rear pads and rotors from Cool Springs Toyota and am ordering the hardware from RockAuto today. I’ll swap those and see how it goes. If issue persists Ill look at front suspension and bearing components.

With 153K, I’m ok with replacing parts and it’s totally expected. I addressed the valley plate and other “wear” components on the front of the engine over the winter so once this issue is resolved I’ll be good for another 100K of motoring. No way are we getting rid of this rig. My family loves it too much.

Steve
 
It is not unheard of in these trucks to have a sticky caliper. My front left had this problem until I did the big brake upgrade to the 16+ brakes. Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is to bleed the entire system. Flush everything out.
 
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