Puzzling electrical mystery: power comes back on...! (1 Viewer)

[toy4xfun]

the loose connection i got, but turning breakers off n on- that's a new one on me i've worked extensively on both coasts and never heard that one before. but it will probably "wow" the natives

i was told this by an old timer when i was an apprentice, he used to make $100 bucks just doing this.

and it might have been because of the old federal pacific panels, but they would not trip any how.

 

[fj40charles]

X2, if the service side checks out ok, I would suspect first, the 2 pole main breaker may have a leg going south.

or any chance you have a breaker in the panel that provides power to additional breakers below the main set of breakers? Kind of like an add-on.

 

[e9999]

well, here is the latest.

After having lost the power over part of the house (and recovering it by turning the oven on) several times, I got the utility to come by and check their side of the system. They did, and said after a load test that their side was good.

He looked at the breakers with a FLIR camera and commented that the main breaker might be slightly hot. 74F vs 71F for the ambiance so not really much. Maybe just the normal current going through? We may have also heard a click come from the main breaker but not obvious at the time, could have been from the meter clip, cuz

he then pulled the meter out, at the same time pulling one of the meter mount clips off the bus bar with it. Apparently, the clip was loose or broken off. Which means one of the panel bus bar was perhaps earlier disconnecting or erratic connection (and maybe causing the partial blackouts for circuits on that bar?) as it looked like some arcing took place between the clip and the bus bar. At that point I was up the creek with no more power to the house. Great... Bad surprise.

Meter mount got fixed and got the utility to come back to reenergize it all.

Power back. But the main breaker still appears to be clicking every so often. Maybe that is causing the slight undervoltages I'm seeing at my computer.

So far, we have not lost all power to half the house again. That may have been caused by the loose meter connection, likely. One 120V line out and some of the circuits off the subpanel off too then. I'm hypothesizing that maybe turning the oven on upped the load enough to cause the meter clip to arcweld itself back together. No idea if that's even possible.

So now, I've got power again but may have a main breaker on the fritz. Old so maybe no easy replacement. Plus it does not look easy to take out, even without the corroded bolts I have. Sheesh.... I hope I don't have to replace all the insides with it. I wonder if the main breaker could have gone bad because of the bad meter connection.

At least it's safe, no fire risk, according to the crusty old electrical contractor boss that came with his utility staff guy to check things out. But the main breaker could well shut itself off permanently if bad, he said.

And now, I know how this thing works, 240V and all, so that's good.

When was the last time you had to take your main panel apart...?


[cleaned up for clarity]

 

[haystax]

Glad you found the glitch. What brand are the original panel and breakers? Most breakers can still be found but are sometimes costly. A few of electricians I know have a pretty good "bonepile" of used panels laying around but maybe finding another packrat electrician in your neighborhood could be a dead end.

You may have an easier time sourcing components if many of the houses in your neighborhood were built as a tract or around the same timeframe.

Good luck.

 

[e9999]

well, I'm hoping that this was the main problem but may not yet be out of the woods.

No markings on the box or main breaker but most of the little ones are Bryant. So maybe that's the box manufacturer too? No, not a tract house.

One good thing about this all is that I got to play with my new to me Honda generator... Nice piece of equipment.

 

[Butt Ugly Chuck]

.... Thought the grid was acting up cuz every so often (once every few days) the lights would go on in the computer room.

Well, now the lights go off once or twice a day, but only in part of the house. The family room (where the comp is) would go dark but the adjacent kitchen is still on. So clearly, not the overall power to the house. Something internal.

But get this, my daughter figured out yesterday that if she turns the electric oven back on while the power is partially out, the power in the blacked out room comes back instantly.

I was just on a street working today and the house across from me the neutral was broken loose at the pole , no one was home at the house so I called the power company ,let them know and they were out in under 20 mins as the power company doesn't want to pay for everything that plugs in, wired or the whole place burns down on their dime .

loose neutral connection somewhere....any neighbors having problems?

We just went through this here. Happened while I took my brother's visiting family out for fishing during a big storm (gotta fish when you can sometimes). Lucky for me, my wife and daughter were home when our Direct TV controller blew up, followed shortly by the DVD/suround sound. The house was filled with smoke. Some lights were still on, but doing wierd things like you describe. Some would go out, some would dim, but turn one on in another part of the house and they all got brighter! None of the neighbors had problems. At one point everything went out, but when I went to check the panel, the meter was still spinning!

PG&E finally showed up at 1AM to check it out. Open nuetral was their diagnosis. The guy climbed the pole and worked for about an hour up there in high winds, hail, etc. and got us going again.

We lost the aforementioned stuff, electrical on our furnace, microwave oven, an older TV, every plugged-in clock in the house, numerous lights, and a bunch of power strips. Thankfully the power strips took the hit and saved computers and newer TV. Claims paperwork is on the way. Hopefully that goes smoothly.

I'm just glad somone was home here or we might have lost quite a bit more in a fire.

 

[toy4xfun]

We just went through this here. Happened while I took my brother's visiting family out for fishing during a big storm (gotta fish when you can sometimes). Lucky for me, my wife and daughter were home when our Direct TV controller blew up, followed shortly by the DVD/suround sound. The house was filled with smoke. Some lights were still on, but doing wierd things like you describe. Some would go out, some would dim, but turn one on in another part of the house and they all got brighter! None of the neighbors had problems. At one point everything went out, but when I went to check the panel, the meter was still spinning!

PG&E finally showed up at 1AM to check it out. Open nuetral was their diagnosis. The guy climbed the pole and worked for about an hour up there in high winds, hail, etc. and got us going again.

We lost the aforementioned stuff, electrical on our furnace, microwave oven, an older TV, every plugged-in clock in the house, numerous lights, and a bunch of power strips. Thankfully the power strips took the hit and saved computers and newer TV. Claims paperwork is on the way. Hopefully that goes smoothly.

I'm just glad somone was home here or we might have lost quite a bit more in a fire.

the lack of stuff burning up is why i am leaning toward losing one of the 120volt legs!

 

[fledglingme]

i've only rebuilt a meter box once- in general it's bad policy to do so. but i understand the need to get it up n running again for you, the home owner. be cautioned, these things are assembled in one sitting( i'm talking about the construction electrican that assembles the parts to create youre home's eleectrical system.) if one element is "slaped together" then more than likely the rest were treated much the same. not trying to overly worry you, just a friendly "heads up" that you'll probably be chaseing problems yet. i don't think that 22years is a lot of time as these things go.

 

[e9999]

i've only rebuilt a meter box once- in general it's bad policy to do so. but i understand the need to get it up n running again for you, the home owner. be cautioned, these things are assembled in one sitting( i'm talking about the construction electrican that assembles the parts to create youre home's eleectrical system.) if one element is "slaped together" then more than likely the rest were treated much the same. not trying to overly worry you, just a friendly "heads up" that you'll probably be chaseing problems yet. i don't think that 22years is a lot of time as these things go.

well, the part that failed was built by the box manufacturer I'm pretty sure, not the electrician who did the house. In fact the house wiring is very well done, to my liking, all with straight wires of the correct length in the panels, with nice 90 bends right where they're supposed to be. Looks great.
I don't know why the bolt broke but surprisingly it looks like it may have happened some time ago since the end of the too-short stub was rusted just as much as the rest.

If you're wondering, the service to the house is split single phase which I understand is pretty common in the US. Only 240V appliance is the (double) electric oven. (until I get a welder... )

 

[toy4xfun]

well, here is the latest.

After having lost the power over part of the house (and recovering it by turning the oven on) several times, I got the utility to come by and check their side of the system. They did, and said after a load test that their side was good.

He looked at the breakers with a FLIR camera and commented that the main breaker might be slightly hot. 74F vs 71F for the ambiance so not really much. Maybe just the normal current going through? We may have also heard a click come from the main breaker but not obvious at the time, could have been from the meter clip, cuz

he then pulled the meter out, at the same time pulling one of the meter mount clips off the bus bar with it. Apparently, the clip was loose or broken off. Which means one of the panel bus bar was perhaps earlier disconnecting or erratic connection (and maybe causing the partial blackouts for circuits on that bar?) as it looked like some arcing took place between the clip and the bus bar. At that point I was up the creek with no more power to the house. Great... Bad surprise.

Friday evening, no power. Getting an electrician to come would have been both expensive and likely fruitless as he would have no doubt declared the whole box toast and declared we need to replace all the inside since it's 22 years old with likely obsolete hardware, which would have been a big job. (Flushed box installed in the outside stucco wall no less, so can't easily replace the whole thing.)

So I rebuilt the meter mount myself. All bolts corroded so that was no piece of cake. Had to remove if from the bus bars and all to get to the clip mount bolt. $3 in new bolts, 5 hours or so. That included rethreading all the holes, putting antiseize on all new bolts etc. A beauty.

Got the utility to come back to reenergize it all.

Power back. But the main breaker still appears to be clicking every so often. Maybe that is causing the slight undervoltages I'm seeing at my computer.

So far, we have not lost all power to half the house again. That may have been caused by the loose meter connection, likely. One 120V line out and some of the circuits off the subpanel off too then. I'm hypothesizing that maybe turning the oven on upped the load enough to cause the meter clip to arcweld itself back together. No idea if that's even possible.

So now, I've got power again but may have a main breaker on the fritz. Old so maybe no easy replacement. Plus it does not look easy to take out, even without the corroded bolts I have. Sheesh.... I hope I don't have to replace all the insides with it. I wonder if the main breaker could have gone bad because of the bad meter connection.

At least it's safe, no fire risk, according to the crusty old electrical contractor boss that came with his utility staff guy to check things out. But the main breaker could well shut itself off permanently if bad, he said.

And now, I know how this thing works, 240V and all, so that's good.

When was the last time you had to take your main panel apart...?

the panel i just replaced cost $197, the buss was pretty eaten up buy the arcing that went on for years in the old panel, but if he wanted just to replace the main, $297 for just the main breaker.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Post pics of your panel. Where in California are you. I recommend having the whole box changed. They can be a bear to get out, and a new one back in, but it is possible. willing to help if I can.

 

[Rambrush]

I would take a look at a sqD hom breaker panel and see if it would dimensionally fit. as most bryant panel breakers interchange with HOM style breakers.
May not be liked by some but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

 

[fj40charles]

Don't be a cheap bastard and not swap out the entire panel. I don't think you want the liability if the house burns down.

 

[e9999]

thanks for all the help.

Bad news. Lost power partially again. So there was more than just the loose meter clip.

I traced it down to the main disconnect/breaker. Both bars going in have power, only one bus bar coming out has it.
I got to replace at least that disconnect.

Man, I don't really need this right now in my life....


Questions for you whizzes:

- are main disconnects standard and generally fit any box or are they specific to the box manufacturer?

- is it possible / easy to replace the innards of the built-in box with disconnect and bus bars from another box so I don't have to deal with replacing the actual metal box that's built in the outside wall? The bus bars that have the little breakers on are fine, it's just the main disconnect that's bad.

thanks, scrambling right now. May have to cut into the fridge wiring to be able to use my generator on that thing if the power cuts out again...

 

[beaufort-fj60]

sounds like you are lucky the house has not burned down.

 

[Black Op]

sounds like you are lucky the house has not burned down.

My 2cents - Have an established electrical contractor replace your disconnect. They generally warranty their work for a year and you can rest assured it is done correctly.

You are lucky that your house did not catch on fire. Do not take short cuts with electricity.

 

[e9999]

I was as careful as I could be. I was prepared to pull off the meter in a hurry if the breaker would act up and I kept an eye on it. Turned off all loads as soon as I saw the real problem, so no current going through the breaker. Meter pulled. Input lines being fully deenergized by the utility.


Continuation of the saga:

As far as I can tell, the main breaker is a Westinghouse or maybe Bryant QFP 200A 2 pole 120/240.

My local supplier tells me these are obsolete and there is no current equivalent.

Replacing the built-in panel box will be a nightmare as it's built in the wall.


Thoughts on how to handle this at minimal cost? Reconditioned breaker? Replace innards? stick an outside panel on top of the old one? What?

 

[fj40charles]

I was as careful as I could be. I was prepared to pull off the meter in a hurry if the breaker would act up and I kept an eye on it. Turned off all loads as soon as I saw the real problem, so no current going through the breaker. Meter pulled. Input lines being fully deenergized by the utility.


Continuation of the saga:

As far as I can tell, the main breaker is a Westinghouse or maybe Bryant QFP 200A 2 pole 120/240.

My local supplier tells me these are obsolete and there is no current equivalent.

Replacing the built-in panel box will be a nightmare as it's built in the wall.


Thoughts on how to handle this at minimal cost? Reconditioned breaker? Replace innards? stick an outside panel on top of the old one? What?

Stop being a cheap bastard and repair it properly. Electrical is one area you don't want to do some redneck or obama engineering.

If your house catches on fire and they determine it was due to a faulty panel because you messed/modified it, good luck getting insurance to pay for it. If your house fire causes your neighbors house(s) to burn, good luck paying for those houses too. I hope you're sitting on a pile of cash when you need it.

Replacing a panel is not going to be an easy or cheap (what you really wanted) task. There is a good reason why electricians charge so much, but will be well worth it when it is complete.

What is your peace of mind worth? This may not make sense for cheap bastards.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

My 2cents - Have an established electrical contractor replace your disconnect. They generally warranty their work for a year and you can rest assured it is done correctly.

You are lucky that your house did not catch on fire. Do not take short cuts with electricity.

X2 And if your panel catches fire and you insurance co finds out you worked on it you may be paying for it anyway.

Time to step a side you are out of your league

 

[toy4xfun]

pm Lambcrusher! A S A P!