Plumbing garage for compressed air
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I have also seen PVC used for the air lines, never heard of it breaking, I'm sure it could, if it got old, you wacked it or something. For the ease of install and modifying it (just cut and glue in a new piece), I'd definetly go with PVC.
[quote author=mabrodis link=board=14;threadid=15339;start=msg147921#msg147921 date=1083308507]
I have also seen PVC used for the air lines, never heard of it breaking, I'm sure it could, if it got old, you wacked it or something. For the ease of install and modifying it (just cut and glue in a new piece), I'd definetly go with PVC.
[/quote]
The problem isn't the pressure - it is the way the material fails....Copper will tear, PVC shatters.
Think about this: something slips off the shelf or a piece of steel that is standing up slides over and whacks the pvc tubing - Now you have between 125 and 175 psi propelling the shards at you. No thanks.
I have had sch 40 pvc shatter when cutting it or (as in the example above, a 4' piece of 1.5" .120 tube fell on to my hose bib. The bib snapped off, and 3" of pipe behind it turned into fragments. Oh and water sprayed everywhere...
Jim
BTW - I did a quick search:
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/osha/interps/1989/im-89-06(rr).pdf
http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html
One more paste:
STATE OF WASHINGTON
Department of
Labor & Industries
Hazard Alert
For more information, call: 1-800-423-7233
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE May 26, 1988
PVC pipe not to be used in compressed air systems
OLYMPIA -- The Department of Labor and Industries warned today that plastic polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pipe cannot be used in compressed air piping systems without the risk of explosion.
When PVC piping explodes, plastic shrapnel pieces are thrown in all directions.
"We're seeing more incidents of explosive failure, and we're citing more employers for using PVC air system piping," said Paul Merrill, senior safety inspector in L&I's Spokane office.
"It's probably just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured in one of these explosions unless everyone pays more attention to the manufacturer's warnings," Merrill said.
Last year, a section of PVC pipe being used for compressed air exploded 27 feet above a warehouse floor. A fragment of the pipe flew 60 feet and embedded itself in a roll of paper. Fortunately, nobody was in the area at the time.
A PVC pipe explosion in a new plant in Selah broke an employee's nose and cut his face.
PVC piping buried 3 feet underground at a Yakima manufacturing plant exploded, opening up a crater approximately 4 feet deep by 3 feet across.
Only one type of plastic pipe has been approved for use with compressed air. That pipe, Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS), is marked on the pipe as approved for compressed air supply.
By law, employers must protect their workers by avoiding the use of unapproved PVC pipe in such systems. Existing compressed air systems which use PVC piping must be completely enclosed, buried or adequately guarded according to specifications approved by a professional consulting engineer.
NOTICE TO EMPLOYERS: If you have questions about the suitability of a material for air system piping, call Labor and Industries at the number listed above for a free consultation.
NOTICE TO EMPLOYEES: If you suspect that a pressurized PVC piping hazard exists, bring it to the attention of your employer. If you do not obtain satisfactory results, you may file a confidential complaint with the Department of Labor and Industries. Complaints are investigated promptly.
Enough to discourage anyone from saving a few bucks.
Use copper!
I have also seen PVC used for the air lines, never heard of it breaking, I'm sure it could, if it got old, you wacked it or something. For the ease of install and modifying it (just cut and glue in a new piece), I'd definetly go with PVC.
[/quote]
The problem isn't the pressure - it is the way the material fails....Copper will tear, PVC shatters.
Think about this: something slips off the shelf or a piece of steel that is standing up slides over and whacks the pvc tubing - Now you have between 125 and 175 psi propelling the shards at you. No thanks.
I have had sch 40 pvc shatter when cutting it or (as in the example above, a 4' piece of 1.5" .120 tube fell on to my hose bib. The bib snapped off, and 3" of pipe behind it turned into fragments. Oh and water sprayed everywhere...
Jim
BTW - I did a quick search:
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/osha/interps/1989/im-89-06(rr).pdf
http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html
One more paste:
STATE OF WASHINGTON
Department of
Labor & Industries
Hazard Alert
For more information, call: 1-800-423-7233
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE May 26, 1988
PVC pipe not to be used in compressed air systems
OLYMPIA -- The Department of Labor and Industries warned today that plastic polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pipe cannot be used in compressed air piping systems without the risk of explosion.
When PVC piping explodes, plastic shrapnel pieces are thrown in all directions.
"We're seeing more incidents of explosive failure, and we're citing more employers for using PVC air system piping," said Paul Merrill, senior safety inspector in L&I's Spokane office.
"It's probably just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured in one of these explosions unless everyone pays more attention to the manufacturer's warnings," Merrill said.
Last year, a section of PVC pipe being used for compressed air exploded 27 feet above a warehouse floor. A fragment of the pipe flew 60 feet and embedded itself in a roll of paper. Fortunately, nobody was in the area at the time.
A PVC pipe explosion in a new plant in Selah broke an employee's nose and cut his face.
PVC piping buried 3 feet underground at a Yakima manufacturing plant exploded, opening up a crater approximately 4 feet deep by 3 feet across.
Only one type of plastic pipe has been approved for use with compressed air. That pipe, Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS), is marked on the pipe as approved for compressed air supply.
By law, employers must protect their workers by avoiding the use of unapproved PVC pipe in such systems. Existing compressed air systems which use PVC piping must be completely enclosed, buried or adequately guarded according to specifications approved by a professional consulting engineer.
NOTICE TO EMPLOYERS: If you have questions about the suitability of a material for air system piping, call Labor and Industries at the number listed above for a free consultation.
NOTICE TO EMPLOYEES: If you suspect that a pressurized PVC piping hazard exists, bring it to the attention of your employer. If you do not obtain satisfactory results, you may file a confidential complaint with the Department of Labor and Industries. Complaints are investigated promptly.
Enough to discourage anyone from saving a few bucks.
Use copper!
- Thread starter
- #24
Great info. Yep, it will be copper and I'll see if I can have the compressor mounted in the carport instead. I'll try to insulate the closet for noise.
For those guys who have an upright 80 or 120 gal compressors, what is the diameter of the tank please? Would a 3' x 3' closet be enough for such a compressor? I will also ask on the other topic posted by VTcruiser.
Dave
For those guys who have an upright 80 or 120 gal compressors, what is the diameter of the tank please? Would a 3' x 3' closet be enough for such a compressor? I will also ask on the other topic posted by VTcruiser.
Dave
1" seems alot too big for say a home shop with at most 2 things going ( thinking you and a buddy). Save some money 3/4" main run should be enough, I guess check the CFM on that beadblaster it should demand the most CFM required.
copper in the walls, make sure that it is pressure tested before rock! I assume 175-135 or so at least. fixin a leak or break in the wall should be some fun. Make sure you get your electrical in there also, LOL.
outlets, look good for working on the cars, how about one or a few at the workbench area? i did my buddies, we did two outlets above the bench and one mounted to a rectractable hose under the bench, perfect reach. Where there is going to be metal work there needs to be a outlet, for tools, for clean up, for the air blowing in your face cause your workin too hard.
Carport? isnt that just a covered outside spot? least mositure the better period.
copper in the walls, make sure that it is pressure tested before rock! I assume 175-135 or so at least. fixin a leak or break in the wall should be some fun. Make sure you get your electrical in there also, LOL.
outlets, look good for working on the cars, how about one or a few at the workbench area? i did my buddies, we did two outlets above the bench and one mounted to a rectractable hose under the bench, perfect reach. Where there is going to be metal work there needs to be a outlet, for tools, for clean up, for the air blowing in your face cause your workin too hard.
Carport? isnt that just a covered outside spot? least mositure the better period.
- Thread starter
- #26
OK, I will add an outlet on top of the work benches. I can live with exposed copper tubing if they are really that maintenance intensive.
Hoping to do most of the messy, smelly stuff in the carport so clean up will be easier. So the grinder, partswasher, blaster, oven, etc. will be there. It will basically be a one car garage without a door. Who knows I might one day put a roll up door there too.
Dave
The beadblaster probably will need something like 12-15 cfm
Hoping to do most of the messy, smelly stuff in the carport so clean up will be easier. So the grinder, partswasher, blaster, oven, etc. will be there. It will basically be a one car garage without a door. Who knows I might one day put a roll up door there too.
Dave
The beadblaster probably will need something like 12-15 cfm
And if the thought of exploding PVC isn't enough to scare you silly...
I recall a post on the LCML a while back that described the "exploratory surgery" necessary to find PVC shrapnel within the human body. See.... it doesn't show up on XRay, so you gotta sorta root around in there with a scalpel to find all of it.
Fuggetaboutit. Go copper. Less corrosion potential than steel, easier to bend, safer than PVC.
I recall a post on the LCML a while back that described the "exploratory surgery" necessary to find PVC shrapnel within the human body. See.... it doesn't show up on XRay, so you gotta sorta root around in there with a scalpel to find all of it.
Fuggetaboutit. Go copper. Less corrosion potential than steel, easier to bend, safer than PVC.
Here's a decision that must be made:
Will the air distribution be used for cooling the air.
If yes, pipe is what you want.
If no, you can use flexible plastic tube with push on fittings, using regulators at the point of use. 1/2 od would do almost anything in a normal shop, including a pressure pot sandblaster with 1/8 inch tip. I've seen this used in chem and drug industry, and it's very quick and easy.
Here's some at grainger
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...atable=true&adobeCompatable=true&CatPage=1480
I think they have something like this at the home centers.
Will the air distribution be used for cooling the air.
If yes, pipe is what you want.
If no, you can use flexible plastic tube with push on fittings, using regulators at the point of use. 1/2 od would do almost anything in a normal shop, including a pressure pot sandblaster with 1/8 inch tip. I've seen this used in chem and drug industry, and it's very quick and easy.
Here's some at grainger
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...atable=true&adobeCompatable=true&CatPage=1480
I think they have something like this at the home centers.
This stuff looks really neat and easy to use. Not sure on the price, but have a feeling its not cheap.
http://www.garage-pak.com/
http://www.garage-pak.com/
More reading for you
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Compressed_air_delivery_system.html
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Compressed_air_delivery_system.html
I piped mine with PVC - no problems (YET)... now y'all have me worried. Isolated the hardlines from the compressor using a 4 foot flex line hooked into a quick disconnect. Quick disconnects plumbed all throughout the garage - 10 total. Drain ball valves on the bottom of each down pipe from the ceiling - no real problem with moisture / condensation. And a shut off valve right out of the compressor - I always shut off pressure from the hard lines rather than leaving them pressurized.
As far as noise goes, I isolated my compressor using rubber mounts and 1/2" bolts to tie it down. Garage sits under our bedrooms and compressor sends vibration noise up through the foundation/walls. Not terrible but you can hear it come on anywhere in the house.
I also put an electrical switch box right next to the compressor so I can quickly dump power from the compressor rather than running to the main breaker box.
Finally, a good practice is to always shut off the compressor when you are walking away - the worst thing I can think of is having a runaway compressor on 'AUTO' with an unattended house.
Troy
As far as noise goes, I isolated my compressor using rubber mounts and 1/2" bolts to tie it down. Garage sits under our bedrooms and compressor sends vibration noise up through the foundation/walls. Not terrible but you can hear it come on anywhere in the house.
I also put an electrical switch box right next to the compressor so I can quickly dump power from the compressor rather than running to the main breaker box.
Finally, a good practice is to always shut off the compressor when you are walking away - the worst thing I can think of is having a runaway compressor on 'AUTO' with an unattended house.
Troy
FWIT copper is almost as easy to use as PVC. A lot easier than black iron.
I would add stub out's anywhere you even think you might want a connection. The cost of a tee and cap comes to less than $1, makes it easy to add a quick connect later if the need arises.
When I lay out a production area I run a circuit around the whole area with a shutoff mid-way in each leg. This allows you to isolate any section, shutoff valves are cheap.
I always size the compressor for 20% more than the expected max requirment. I have never regretted this.
I would add stub out's anywhere you even think you might want a connection. The cost of a tee and cap comes to less than $1, makes it easy to add a quick connect later if the need arises.
When I lay out a production area I run a circuit around the whole area with a shutoff mid-way in each leg. This allows you to isolate any section, shutoff valves are cheap.
I always size the compressor for 20% more than the expected max requirment. I have never regretted this.
compound fracture of my left tibia due to PVC air line failure in 1997, so I guess you could say I wouldn't recomend it!
I've piped autobody shops in Black pipe and I've piped them in PVC. the only problem with PVC is that the vibration near the pump can cause the theaded joints to leak but if you put a union there than it's not much of a problem. The local VW Dealer had a large dryer unit on the compressor outlet that was piped in 1 1/4" PVC till someone moved it and snaped the inlet line and blew the dryer materal all over the shop. Now it's piped in steel.
My shop is piped in copper. L copper is good for something like 500 PSI so I don't think it will be a problem.
Kevin
My shop is piped in copper. L copper is good for something like 500 PSI so I don't think it will be a problem.
Kevin
