Pendragon

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New on the left old on the right. Spot the problem?

Because OF COURSE the would have different electrical connectors. @#$@##$

Now I'm a bit stuck. I have to figure out what connectors I'm supposed to use, and then figure out how to get them on the ends of those wires, or swap these for the right injectors but with the right terminals. ... and in my head this was going to be so easy. Actually, looking closely, they're not even the same size as one-another.

Which now makes me wonder if the rest of the injection system will even work with the swapped injectors.

Mother @%#$ godless malodorous son of a &@!#$%
@#$

!!!

IMG_20190104_134927.webp


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So I am both and idiot and an a-hole. I'm going about this from the wrong end of the wire. Injectors are going back to Summit. I called up Tor with my latest hair-brained idea this afternoon and we're going to re-flash my computer so that it accounts for the larger injector size, which should fix the issue.
 
SPANNERSPINNER said:
So I am both and idiot and an a-hole. I'm going about this from the wrong end of the wire. Injectors are going back to Summit. I called up Tor with my latest hair-brained idea this afternoon and we're going to re-flash my computer so that it accounts for the larger injector size, which should fix the issue.
Click to expand...

That should do the trick. I had a similar problem, but the opposite, getting DTCs for a lean condition. I solved it in a different way by modifying another table. Of course I forgot what I did, but if the Tor flash doesn’t solve it, I’ll go back and see if I can find it. Worked like a charm, no more codes.

You got the Evap puzzle solved, that’s the BIG ONE. Everything else can be solved. You might not have any hair left, but you’ll get there.

John
 
So, got my computer back with the altered tune, and I'm not sure what to make of it. It's like everything is the same, just the signs are flipped. Long Term Fuel Trim on both banks is now around +20% on both banks.

The screen shot is while sitting idle.

Screenshot_20190117-144650.webp
 
So, got my computer back. I wound up talking to the guy that did the tune the truck was currently using and he went back and verified in the file he used that it was indeed set for the wrong injectors. Got the computer back from him this afternoon with the altered tune, and I'm not sure what to make of it. It's like everything is the same, just the signs are flipped. Long Term Fuel Trim on both banks is now around +20% on both banks.

The screen shot is while sitting idle.
 
Hi, I just found your thread and I believe I can help. I have a flex fuel LS motor in my truck and when I initially got it running it was VERY rich! So I went about this in a very different way... I come from a hot rodding background so I assumed I could achieve a little better airflow before I attempt to solve this richness problem, I ported my heads, port matched the intake, and added a mild cam. Net result was a lot leaner, but still rich. Now for the advice, you need dyno tuning! I went from a rich condition, did a little port massaging, got a dyno tune and now Im running as it should, nice and Stoichiometric. Bottom line, you need real tuning, not a reflash. Also as for the high temps, check how your steam vent line is routed correctly (to the upper rad hose or to the top of the rad itself) and see if necessary burp the system and you might even look at what thermostat you have in there. Good luck, they are great motors!
 
Allen, So now you potentially could have a lean condition! I did look at how I fixed my problem. I was getting a P0171 and another code that suggested my MAF was out of limit. I adjusted the MAF Airflow vs. Frequency table using HP tuners. The idea was to make the system think it was getting more air than it really was, then the computer would compensate by giving it more fuel. It worked beautifully. 20k+ miles and I never got another code.
 
JohnCapoccia said:
Allen, So now you potentially could have a lean condition! I did look at how I fixed my problem. I was getting a P0171 and another code that suggested my MAF was out of limit. I adjusted the MAF Airflow vs. Frequency table using HP tuners. The idea was to make the system think it was getting more air than it really was, then the computer would compensate by giving it more fuel. It worked beautifully. 20k+ miles and I never got another code.
Click to expand...

I'll have to look in to HP Tuners. Looks like it's a few hundred $$$ for their reader and the software? Where were you able to get the info that allowed you to make the right adjustments to your PCM?

I was thinking I needed to clear the LTFT data table, or maybe that's empty hope. It looks like it can survive flashes and DTC resets and is not a time-disconnected-from-battery based reset. Looks like you have to have a tuner that can command the PCM to flush that data?

It just threw lean codes on both banks and a P0116 - temp circuit out of range. It is definitely trying to overheat. We are in the low 60a temp wise, with a bunch of rain, and the temp is hovering around 205 or so, and wants to jump up and activate the fans while driving down the freeway at 60MPH.
 
I'm not sure that I can flush the data, I've never looked into it, but it shouldn't be necessary in any case. The system is constantly relearning. I can burn the table for you, no problem - let me know. I have extra licenses.

I don't know what to say about overheating. I believe the LS motors activate the 1st fan at 200 deg. I don't remember what temp activates the second fan. I don't have electric fans, I have a clutch fan and I never get to 200, but I've got a Griffin radiator. I started with the stock FJ62 radiator, but it was inadequate.
 
By the way, I wonder how you and I got into this situation to start with. Are the tuners using the tune that came with the PCM or are they just loading their own template? You used Tor, but I used Pacific Fabrication and we both wound up with the same problem.
 
JohnCapoccia said:
By the way, I wonder how you and I got into this situation to start with. Are the tuners using the tune that came with the PCM or are they just loading their own template? You used Tor, but I used Pacific Fabrication and we both wound up with the same problem.
Click to expand...

I was just thinking this. There _HAS_ to be something awry. The PCM is expecting a signal it doesn't see so it overcompensates with a different term in the equation or something. If this were just a standard 2005 5.3 Vortec tune for Flex injectors, I don't see why it would remotely think it was this lean. I'm understanding more and more why I was the last of Tor's wrecker engines and why he only does E-RODs now. The MAF reads what it should at idle, the 02 sensors look okay, the MAP is where it should be. This just feels like something is wrong. I mean, if it had a vacuum leak or something I could understand, but this? Baffling.

JohnCapoccia said:
I don't know what to say about overheating. I believe the LS motors activate the 1st fan at 200 deg. I don't remember what temp activates the second fan. I don't have electric fans, I have a clutch fan and I never get to 200, but I've got a Griffin radiator. I started with the stock FJ62 radiator, but it was inadequate.
Click to expand...
It's got a shiny new Rad in it on electric fans. It shouldn't need them when it's driving down the freeway, but they kick in if I stick my foot in it. I'm thinking the "lean" condition is causing excess fuel to get dumped into the cylinder causing overheat. It did it a bit prior to this re-tune, but not nearly to this degree.

JohnCapoccia said:
I'm not sure that I can flush the data, I've never looked into it, but it shouldn't be necessary in any case. The system is constantly relearning. I can burn the table for you, no problem - let me know. I have extra licenses.
Click to expand...
If you have time to meet up, I'll buy the coffee (or drink of your choice). If it turns out we can fix it and you have to burn a license, I'm happy to pay you for that so you're not burning resources on my truck.
 
SPANNERSPINNER said:
I was just thinking this. There _HAS_ to be something awry. The PCM is expecting a signal it doesn't see so it overcompensates with a different term in the equation or something. If this were just a standard 2005 5.3 Vortec tune for Flex injectors, I don't see why it would remotely think it was this lean. I'm understanding more and more why I was the last of Tor's wrecker engines and why he only does E-RODs now. The MAF reads what it should at idle, the 02 sensors look okay, the MAP is where it should be. This just feels like something is wrong. I mean, if it had a vacuum leak or something I could understand, but this? Baffling.


It's got a shiny new Rad in it on electric fans. It shouldn't need them when it's driving down the freeway, but they kick in if I stick my foot in it. I'm thinking the "lean" condition is causing excess fuel to get dumped into the cylinder causing overheat. It did it a bit prior to this re-tune, but not nearly to this degree.


If you have time to meet up, I'll buy the coffee (or drink of your choice). If it turns out we can fix it and you have to burn a license, I'm happy to pay you for that so you're not burning resources on my truck.
Click to expand...

When you get a p0171 code, it means that the system has reached the limit of what it can do to “trim” or correct the air/fuel mixture. It’s not dumping extra fuel in the combustion chamber. If it was, it would be running cooler, not hotter. A lean condition will cause it to run hotter. Anyway, let’s fix the trim and if that fixes the overheating, great. If not, you’ve eliminated one possible cause.

I’ll pm you
 
So, @JohnCapoccia came over (again, I can't thank you enough John) and we used his software to reduce the flow-rate of the injectors from the part-indicated 35.6 to ~31.9 and that seems to have brought my long and short term fuel trims to within enough tolerance that the rest of the emissions stuff should magically happen in the background. I thought for sure we would end up casting chicken bones and making a Vortec voodoo doll, but it didn't come to that.

@youpers Thanks for the tip. I'm hopeful that the alterations John and I made to the PCM will get me past the BAR. From there, I may take and tune it properly, or just use it for a bit. It will feel good just to drive it or take it out on the trail without worrying about registration, etc, and there are definitely trails in Death Valley, Mojave, and Anza Borrego that are calling my name.

We also adjusted my fans so they come on earlier and stay on longer to hopefully keep the temps under more control. It was so bad every time I got out of the truck I could smell coolant and rubber.

Keeping my fingers crossed.
 
Lookin’ good Allen! Lots of fun working with you on this, I appreciate your willingness to dig in and do some research. I learned a few new things... Good thing we had your old tune so that we could see what changed - very interesting!

Keeping my fingers crossed until you get that coveted sticker!
 
2 days of driving. Heated Catalyst has set, but still waiting on the the other monitors. Long Term Fuel Trims have come a little lower, which is good, but I'm a little worried as the downstream O2 sensors are showing what I think may be high readings (rich) at times - 0.7v - 0.8v.

@JohnCapoccia I'm using Torque for Android and an OBDLINK MX OBDII reader to connect to my Android phone via Bluetooth. Their newer readers (marked with a "+") will read the newer codes introduced in... '07? '08? I don't recall.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en_US
OBDLink® MX Bluetooth

My ref appointment is on the 23rd. Keep your fingers crossed for me. Need these monitors to set tomorrow.

EDIT: RE the torque app, you can add custom PIDs and sensors and use that functionality to add the extended PIDs that may apply to your vehicle. If you get into it, check their forums. A quick search for "vortec 5.3 torque extended PIDs" returns exactly what you're looking for.
 
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Had to cancel the appointment for tomorrow morning. I haven't set the monitors, and while I hope to set it on the way home tonight, hope is no battle plan.

With luck, it well set later this week and I'll be able to reschedule. I'm still a bit squidgy on the behavior of my downstream O2 sensors. My understanding of their operation is that, once the truck is warm and operating in closed loop, they should maintain a fairly constant voltage, but that's not what I'm seeing. When I let off the gas, the voltage will drop to .1 or .2 and rise again when I'm back on the gas, and when idling my engine, they're up around 0.8 and change. I think the computer uses these to test how effective the CATs are and if these signals are going all over the place I'm a little worried the associated monitor won't set. I don't remember if EVAP is independent of the other monitors and just sets last because it requires time, or if it is dependent on the other monitors setting before it will run, but regardless, I've got two - EVAP and Cat that aren't set.

Ran the Mode $06 diagnostics via Torque and it came back as a pass, with the exception of the tests at the bottom of the message. It looks like maybe one failed test with dependent tests not running. The failing test is TID 0A CID 13. Looking at the link here it looks like that is the Weak EVAP test. Maybe? Gonna have to go to the gym before tightening my gas cap and heading home. Hopefully that is the fix.

TID:$0a CID:$01
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
--
TID:$0a CID:$04
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
--
TID:$0a CID:$07
- Sensor period(calculated)
Min: 600
Test result value: 600
PASS
----
TID:$0a CID:$0a
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
--
TID:$0a CID:$0b
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
--
TID:$0a CID:$0c
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
--
TID:$0a CID:$0d
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
--
TID:$0a CID:$13
- Sensor period(calculated)
Max: 14,000
Test result value: 14,070
FAIL
----
TID:$0a CID:$42
- Sensor period(calculated)
Test incomplete or dependant test failed
​
In English, that's
EVPD = Evap Vacuum Pressure Decay test
VONV = Engine Off Natural Vacuum test

EVAP/EVPD canister vent restriction test 1
EVPD weak vacuum follow-up test
EONV NV .020" test
EONV vacuum rezero test
EONV fuel level rationality test
EONV vacuum rationality test
EVAP weak vacuum test
EVPT canister vent restriction test 2​
 
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