yooper
SILVER Star
Optima Red Tops on eBay for $39.95. I'm considering it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3074215322
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3074215322
Odyssey, Optima (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter scottm
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yooper
SILVER Star
[quote author=Scott M. link=board=2;threadid=10425;start=msg97158#msg97158 date=1075515273]
I need a battery, I wonder what's refurbished? And do they have orange tops too?
[/quote]
I dunno. They have a little tiny Odyssey, though. I emailed them a question aobut shipping and about the Odyssey and they haven't responded after two days. Check out their "seller's other items".
I need a battery, I wonder what's refurbished? And do they have orange tops too?
[/quote]
I dunno. They have a little tiny Odyssey, though. I emailed them a question aobut shipping and about the Odyssey and they haven't responded after two days. Check out their "seller's other items".
scottm
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #24
[quote author=yooper link=board=2;threadid=10425;start=msg97168#msg97168 date=1075517642]
I dunno. They have a little tiny Odyssey, though. I emailed them a question aobut shipping and about the Odyssey and they haven't responded after two days. Check out their "seller's other items".
[/quote]
I e-mailed them about orange tops last night, got my answer (no) this morn. Perhaps they're still checking on shipping hazardous materials by dogsled.
Enjoy the snow, we trolls are finally getting dumped on.
I dunno. They have a little tiny Odyssey, though. I emailed them a question aobut shipping and about the Odyssey and they haven't responded after two days. Check out their "seller's other items".
[/quote]
I e-mailed them about orange tops last night, got my answer (no) this morn. Perhaps they're still checking on shipping hazardous materials by dogsled.
Enjoy the snow, we trolls are finally getting dumped on.
[quote author=Rich link=board=2;threadid=10425;start=msg96572#msg96572 date=1075339089]
My comments are based research I have done in the past regarding installing parallel banks of batteries in boats (common and very comparable to an offroad truck with engine off loads such as a fridge) and also more recently regarding using large banks of parallel batteries to provide either backup or primary power in a residence when the power grid is not available. The recomendations have been universal that when charging and loading batteries in parallel it is best that they are same type, model, manufacturer, and age. Obviously in a large bank, say in a home backup, if a battery suffers early failure it would get replaced with a newer battery, but still should be the same manufacturer and model.
So, to get more info, do a search on dual battery marine installation and residential solar power for more background. Online marine stores offer books on 12 volt wiring, including dual battery installations, for marine use.
Rich
[/quote]
as you suggested I did some reading about banks of batteries very interesting and you are very correct about banks used in solar homes RV and marine use where they are discharged together but I think in this app as long as they are not paralleled without charging current (engine off) I should be OK with mixed batteries,
seams if mixed batteries are paralleled without a charging current pressent then the one with the higher charge (if they are not identical models and age one will always be better off than the other) will try to charge the lower, not only does this leave you with 2 lower level batteries but charging a battery is not 100% efficient so when they finally find their level you will have less total capacity between the two than when you killed the engine
my earlier post above I was thinking of the charging side did not think of what happens when they go to discharge
the way I want to use them is one deep cycle "Tank" battery for all accessories that can safely be used with the engine off isolated from the Starting battery without fear of not being able to restart, also want the tank batteyr to keep voltage up to the accesories (prevent reboot) during starting so I need then to stay isolated until the alternator kicks in, not sure how I am going to do that (still have more reading to do) since they are only parallel with the alternator turning the two batteries should not interact as long as the alt can keep up,
depending on how much $ I can swing into the dual batt project I may go with 2 Odyssey's making the above a mute point
I have read that mods need to be made to fit the a 1700 into the USDS tray, but in my searching no one specified exactly how extensive? I don't mind modifying/replacing the hold down and cabling but I do not want to loose the heat protection of the box/tray
could any one elaborate? And what about the USPS added tray? Will it fit the 1700MJ if not will the 1200MJ fit?
Also if anyone knows the Max group size for both trays that would be great to know
the preliminary specs for the new 2150 put it to have a very similar footprint to the 1700 just taller witch I assume is not where the fit problem is? So if you can modify for the 1700 the 2150 might fit also?
My comments are based research I have done in the past regarding installing parallel banks of batteries in boats (common and very comparable to an offroad truck with engine off loads such as a fridge) and also more recently regarding using large banks of parallel batteries to provide either backup or primary power in a residence when the power grid is not available. The recomendations have been universal that when charging and loading batteries in parallel it is best that they are same type, model, manufacturer, and age. Obviously in a large bank, say in a home backup, if a battery suffers early failure it would get replaced with a newer battery, but still should be the same manufacturer and model.
So, to get more info, do a search on dual battery marine installation and residential solar power for more background. Online marine stores offer books on 12 volt wiring, including dual battery installations, for marine use.
Rich
[/quote]
as you suggested I did some reading about banks of batteries very interesting and you are very correct about banks used in solar homes RV and marine use where they are discharged together but I think in this app as long as they are not paralleled without charging current (engine off) I should be OK with mixed batteries,
seams if mixed batteries are paralleled without a charging current pressent then the one with the higher charge (if they are not identical models and age one will always be better off than the other) will try to charge the lower, not only does this leave you with 2 lower level batteries but charging a battery is not 100% efficient so when they finally find their level you will have less total capacity between the two than when you killed the engine
my earlier post above I was thinking of the charging side did not think of what happens when they go to discharge
the way I want to use them is one deep cycle "Tank" battery for all accessories that can safely be used with the engine off isolated from the Starting battery without fear of not being able to restart, also want the tank batteyr to keep voltage up to the accesories (prevent reboot) during starting so I need then to stay isolated until the alternator kicks in, not sure how I am going to do that (still have more reading to do) since they are only parallel with the alternator turning the two batteries should not interact as long as the alt can keep up,
depending on how much $ I can swing into the dual batt project I may go with 2 Odyssey's making the above a mute point
I have read that mods need to be made to fit the a 1700 into the USDS tray, but in my searching no one specified exactly how extensive? I don't mind modifying/replacing the hold down and cabling but I do not want to loose the heat protection of the box/tray
could any one elaborate? And what about the USPS added tray? Will it fit the 1700MJ if not will the 1200MJ fit?
Also if anyone knows the Max group size for both trays that would be great to know
the preliminary specs for the new 2150 put it to have a very similar footprint to the 1700 just taller witch I assume is not where the fit problem is? So if you can modify for the 1700 the 2150 might fit also?
here is a pic of a 1200 next to a red top as you can see its a lot smaller and will fit with no problems.
and a pair of 1200's
but if you only have one battery I would look at fitting a 1700, but its a big battery.
the other batts i like at the Orbitals, I have 4 of them now, better than a Optima IMOP. I use the Extremes, cost $109 each
as far as what fits, get the tape measure out, thats what I did on my 40 when considering adding dual batts. I actaully made a cardboard mock up of them and played with mounting options, ended up widening the stock fj40 tray to fit a pair.
I will be going with a 1700 or the 2100 in my UZJ someday.
also as much as I hate 4wp's they are having a sale on there brand of batts which I think are re-baged Orbitals, any batt $99.
I have a group 31 Optima YT in my fj45 its a big battery.
pretty sure the stock size batts in 80/100 is a group 24.
and a pair of 1200's
but if you only have one battery I would look at fitting a 1700, but its a big battery.
the other batts i like at the Orbitals, I have 4 of them now, better than a Optima IMOP. I use the Extremes, cost $109 each
as far as what fits, get the tape measure out, thats what I did on my 40 when considering adding dual batts. I actaully made a cardboard mock up of them and played with mounting options, ended up widening the stock fj40 tray to fit a pair.
I will be going with a 1700 or the 2100 in my UZJ someday.
also as much as I hate 4wp's they are having a sale on there brand of batts which I think are re-baged Orbitals, any batt $99.
I have a group 31 Optima YT in my fj45 its a big battery.
pretty sure the stock size batts in 80/100 is a group 24.
I just read an article and I will re-read for the FACTS on batteries. My 4x4 mag did a little test on 4 types of batteries. The Optima and one other, I am thinking dyno? something, I will check. They found these two superior in some repects then the Odyssey. The Odyssey I recall would winch like a few seconds longer then the Optima, however during an engine run without charging (no alternator) the Optima ran the engine for an hour and a half, where as the Odyssey only lasted 45 minutes.
Peterson's 4x4 mag I believe is the mag.
Personally I now have the Optima 34D (big mother) in my LC as the primary battery and my old Panasonic is my second battery (yea, I know the identical battery thing, but I couldn't justify tossing the Panasonic and buying another Optima @ $199. Before the Optima I was killing a battery a year due to some stupid voltage leak (or all the crap I have hooked up, added together). The third battery I went with this Optima and it has been over a year now and no problems......so far. Still seems like new.
Yomama
Peterson's 4x4 mag I believe is the mag.
Personally I now have the Optima 34D (big mother) in my LC as the primary battery and my old Panasonic is my second battery (yea, I know the identical battery thing, but I couldn't justify tossing the Panasonic and buying another Optima @ $199. Before the Optima I was killing a battery a year due to some stupid voltage leak (or all the crap I have hooked up, added together). The third battery I went with this Optima and it has been over a year now and no problems......so far. Still seems like new.
Yomama
I gotta defend my Optimas too.
I've got one red top that was a factory 2nd. Supposed to be cosmetic blemish somewhere, I dunno, the big burned in stamp that says "factory 2nd" is the only one I could find. It's been in my 40 for about 9 years. It has never had to be charged. Ever. It has never corroded. Ever. At $69.69 (hard to forget that price) it has cost me around $7.74 per year.
I've also got a yellow top. I've had it for 4 years and it's on it's 3rd vehicle now.
Just my $.02.
I've got one red top that was a factory 2nd. Supposed to be cosmetic blemish somewhere, I dunno, the big burned in stamp that says "factory 2nd" is the only one I could find. It's been in my 40 for about 9 years. It has never had to be charged. Ever. It has never corroded. Ever. At $69.69 (hard to forget that price
) it has cost me around $7.74 per year.I've also got a yellow top. I've had it for 4 years and it's on it's 3rd vehicle now.
Just my $.02.
and I got a pile of Yellow tops that are junk.
yeah its the group 34 YT I got.
I believe the test, for one the Odyessy don't have the reserve of a Optima or Oribtal, but it also depends on which Odyessy they tested. For my needs on the 40, the Odyessy was by far the best choice, what other batts can you mount 2 of in the stock tray? I wanted a backup batt more than capacity. my fj60 runs dual Oribtals.
I would look at the Oribtals as a option to the Optima, I will never buy a Optima again. I have LOTS of batt. However the red tops seem to be OK, got one that is at least 6 years old, its now in the fj62.
For my boat this year I went back to conventional batts, used Exide marine batts and at $50 each.........I can't complain
yeah its the group 34 YT I got.
I believe the test, for one the Odyessy don't have the reserve of a Optima or Oribtal, but it also depends on which Odyessy they tested. For my needs on the 40, the Odyessy was by far the best choice, what other batts can you mount 2 of in the stock tray? I wanted a backup batt more than capacity. my fj60 runs dual Oribtals.
I would look at the Oribtals as a option to the Optima, I will never buy a Optima again. I have LOTS of batt. However the red tops seem to be OK, got one that is at least 6 years old, its now in the fj62.
For my boat this year I went back to conventional batts, used Exide marine batts and at $50 each.........I can't complain
[quote author=Rich link=board=2;threadid=10425;start=msg96572#msg96572 date=1075339089]
The recomendations have been universal that when charging and loading batteries in parallel it is best that they are same type, model, manufacturer, and age. Obviously in a large bank, say in a home backup, if a battery suffers early failure it would get replaced with a newer battery, but still should be the same manufacturer and model.[/quote]
From what I've read, Rich is right about this. The primary reason as I understand it is that the battery (one or the other) provides the field to the alternator, which in turn is used to control the amount of current the alternator will push back to the battery. If you have one fully charged and one partially charged battery, whichever one is providing the field to the alternator is dictating how much of a charge the alternator provides. So if the field is coming from the fully charged battery, your second battery will never get charged. If the field comes form the partially charged battery, then you're going to overcharge and damage the other battery.
By using two batteries of the same size/brand/age, you are minimizing this effect to the extent possible. I do recall seeing an article somewhere about setting up a dual battery system that was able to sense the field from each battery individually (and charge them separately too), but I can't recall where that was. I think it was on the page of a battery isolator manufacturer. The alternative is to manually isolate the batteries with an A/B switch and just flip the switch once in a while.
The recomendations have been universal that when charging and loading batteries in parallel it is best that they are same type, model, manufacturer, and age. Obviously in a large bank, say in a home backup, if a battery suffers early failure it would get replaced with a newer battery, but still should be the same manufacturer and model.[/quote]
From what I've read, Rich is right about this. The primary reason as I understand it is that the battery (one or the other) provides the field to the alternator, which in turn is used to control the amount of current the alternator will push back to the battery. If you have one fully charged and one partially charged battery, whichever one is providing the field to the alternator is dictating how much of a charge the alternator provides. So if the field is coming from the fully charged battery, your second battery will never get charged. If the field comes form the partially charged battery, then you're going to overcharge and damage the other battery.
By using two batteries of the same size/brand/age, you are minimizing this effect to the extent possible. I do recall seeing an article somewhere about setting up a dual battery system that was able to sense the field from each battery individually (and charge them separately too), but I can't recall where that was. I think it was on the page of a battery isolator manufacturer. The alternative is to manually isolate the batteries with an A/B switch and just flip the switch once in a while.
I think that is partially correct (I'm not expert on this either)...but you can't force a battery to take a charge. All you do it up the source voltage and if it starts drawing current then it's charging. That's also one way to tell if a battery is bad, give it 14 volts, if it doesn't draw more than a few amps, and you know it's dead, then it's bad and dead, won't take a charge = junk.
In a normal car environment the alternator supplies a voltage when the vehicle is running, and unless I'm mistaken the voltage is always the same (or as close as the electronics can get it). So if you are at a idle the voltage is say 13.7 volts, you rev it up, it should also be 13.7 volts.
Now in real life that might not work that way, partially because at a idle if you have lots of accessories on, the actual battery voltage may drop due to demand. The alternator doesn't have to 'see' this drop, it's all connected so current starts to flow from the alternator. Since at a idle the alternator can't supply enough current to keep the voltage at say 13.7 volts with all these accessories on, the voltage goes down. The alternator is a current limited device, it can't supply endless amount of current, so if it would take say 80 amps to keep the battery/electronics at 13.7 volts, and it can only provide 50 amps, then the voltage will be less that 13.7 volts.
So, now to the dual battery, if charging them in parallel, and they are always connected, (not isolated like most dual battery setups), then I don't think that would be a problem. The voltage regulator will sense the voltage of BOTH batteries at the same time because they are both connected together, so current will flow from the alternator to which ever battery is the lowest, since electrical physics dicate that.
If the 2nd battery is connected through a isolater then it would depend on how it would react on whether the isolater is a diode style (where the 2nd battery's voltage would always be a diode-drop from the primary) or a sensing/relay style where when the sensing logic determines it needs to charge the 2nd battery it closes a relay and current can flow, no voltage drop (well ideally none, there is always some voltage drop).
In a normal car environment the alternator supplies a voltage when the vehicle is running, and unless I'm mistaken the voltage is always the same (or as close as the electronics can get it). So if you are at a idle the voltage is say 13.7 volts, you rev it up, it should also be 13.7 volts.
Now in real life that might not work that way, partially because at a idle if you have lots of accessories on, the actual battery voltage may drop due to demand. The alternator doesn't have to 'see' this drop, it's all connected so current starts to flow from the alternator. Since at a idle the alternator can't supply enough current to keep the voltage at say 13.7 volts with all these accessories on, the voltage goes down. The alternator is a current limited device, it can't supply endless amount of current, so if it would take say 80 amps to keep the battery/electronics at 13.7 volts, and it can only provide 50 amps, then the voltage will be less that 13.7 volts.
So, now to the dual battery, if charging them in parallel, and they are always connected, (not isolated like most dual battery setups), then I don't think that would be a problem. The voltage regulator will sense the voltage of BOTH batteries at the same time because they are both connected together, so current will flow from the alternator to which ever battery is the lowest, since electrical physics dicate that.
If the 2nd battery is connected through a isolater then it would depend on how it would react on whether the isolater is a diode style (where the 2nd battery's voltage would always be a diode-drop from the primary) or a sensing/relay style where when the sensing logic determines it needs to charge the 2nd battery it closes a relay and current can flow, no voltage drop (well ideally none, there is always some voltage drop).
You're correct on this point: you can't force a battery to take a charge. But you can continue to charge a battery, and if you do so past the point at which the battery can convert the electrical to chemical energy, you start to hydrolyse the water in the battery (i.e., you start splitting the water into hydrogen and oxygen). This is the way they make hydrogen and oxygen elctrolytically.
But if all that you say were true, you then would have to conclude that we have an entire industry producing battery isolators that are nothing more than a scam (since by the situation you describe, you don't need an isolator), and a bunch of people buying them for no reason. No offence...I may not know the exact specifics behind it, but I know what you've said can not be correct.
I think one of the things you're wrong about is the part where you say an alternator always produces the same voltage. Anyone who's ever run a battery to cold dead will tell you this isn't true--if it were, then they'd have been able to get home once they ran the battery dead.
The ability of an alternator to produce power is dependent on the field which in turn is produced by the battery. Once the battery is dead, it can't produce a field and the battery is on a terminal death slope. The alternator will then be unable to produce any power and the car/truck dies due to lack of spark.
The other thing I think is wrong is that in a parallel dual setup, I don't think you actually have the maximum voltage being applied to the field--the best you would get is the average since the weaker battery will be getting "charged" by the stronger battery and only the average is seen by the alternator.
I'll leave it to the electrical geniuses on the forum to correct me, but I think I was right (kinda sorta)
But if all that you say were true, you then would have to conclude that we have an entire industry producing battery isolators that are nothing more than a scam (since by the situation you describe, you don't need an isolator), and a bunch of people buying them for no reason. No offence...I may not know the exact specifics behind it, but I know what you've said can not be correct.
I think one of the things you're wrong about is the part where you say an alternator always produces the same voltage. Anyone who's ever run a battery to cold dead will tell you this isn't true--if it were, then they'd have been able to get home once they ran the battery dead.
The ability of an alternator to produce power is dependent on the field which in turn is produced by the battery. Once the battery is dead, it can't produce a field and the battery is on a terminal death slope. The alternator will then be unable to produce any power and the car/truck dies due to lack of spark.
The other thing I think is wrong is that in a parallel dual setup, I don't think you actually have the maximum voltage being applied to the field--the best you would get is the average since the weaker battery will be getting "charged" by the stronger battery and only the average is seen by the alternator.
I'll leave it to the electrical geniuses on the forum to correct me, but I think I was right (kinda sorta)
Scott, this thread has more info in it than I have brain band right now (as usual) so I skipped to the end. Bottom line, avoid Optimas and get the Odyssey.
Question: Those Odessy 1200's look like they wouldn't be much bigger than a group 27 marine batt when you set them together. The reason for the question is I'm looking for an alternative batt setup for my boat. I currently have two group 24 marine batts but was thinking about upgrading to group 27's. But if I could use two of those Odessy 1200's (for the stereo & acc's) esentially making one 2400 wouldnt that be better? I would be using this setup to power my stereo (about 400 watts) for extended periods with the motor off. And if not then what would be the best batt for that kind of use?
excellent long read on batteries in general and soem info on dual setups with lots of data
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/index.htm
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/index.htm