Ouch. At least you allowed the 80 owners to be included in the 'club'
Oct club trip
- Thread starter BionicCruiser
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Ok so what is the point of driving then anymore? As much as I like the continuation of the LC line, its s*** like this that makes me more and more not interested in the future of the LC. Stuff like that seems like it is for lazy people or people who don't know how to drive their trucks over obstacles...
Counter-point.
There are hobbyists like us that seek out challenging places to drive our trucks. We don't want crawl mode 1,2,3. Most of us probably don't even want A-TRAC. There are a lot of guys that don't even want automatic transmissions though I am not one of them. I also don't want manual hubs because (IMHO) the FT 4wd in my 80 is outstanding. But I digress...
Then there is the rest of the world (and I am including people in 3rd world countries.) The rest of the world wants a 4wd vehicle to get them out of a jam that they never intended to get into in the first place. They want something that is simple to operate; in other words, put it in low range and press the 'get out of trouble' button.
Giving that level of control back to the vehicle and out of our hands isn't our cup of tea but we are the minority.
-Mike-
Beowulf said:
My main worry with such an "intelligent" rig is if s*** goes bad in the middle of BF how the hell are you going to fix/disable systems to get yourself out?
It seems like you need to be an EE to figue one of the new ones out....I guess Ali should get one and let us know...
Too funny as usual. Beno likes to pose the same stuff in the 200 section.
I really don't think there is much of an argument to be made here, as a matter of fact, it is just plain hypocritical. To say that using crawl mode lessens the point of driving, creates lazy people, or people who can't drive is ridiculous. Couldn't you say the same thing about lockers? To me the list of difficulty on a trail goes from open diffs to ATRAC to Crawl Control to lockers. So, from where I'm sitting your 80 on 35's fully locked is as easy as it gets. Perhaps your too lazy to drive an unmodified open diff vehicle, or worse yet, you lack the skills to get the job done without all the extras.
Beo is dead on. The group of people looking to test the rig to its fullest is a very small minority. The Turkish/American Toyota Parts Guru is an even smaller minority that I'm convinced Toyota corporate does not have a demographic bar graph for. I'm sure they spend a great deal of money to determine what the world's needs/wants are. I know I'm not the reason they made the 200, but lucky for me, I get to use one anyway. Mine will live a pretty comfy life, until it gets older, then it will show its true LC heritage. I love the looks of a 70 series, they are flat out cool, but not available.
Everything mechanical has a chance to break. I don't see crawl mode increasing your chances of being stranded. It's based off the ABS system, just a modified ATRAC. How many failures of the ABS system and ATRAC do you hear about? Maybe it is happening but I haven't seen it. So the crawl control fails.....oh no!! I guess I'll get out a strap or hit the fricking gas harder, same thing I would do if my elocker decides to take a dump.
The rest of the truck is the normal extra stout cruiser build I have grown to love. The truck feels heavy, handles well for a big truck and hauls ass if I want it too. The inside is nice and sturdy without all the extranious bling...it just works.
Everytime a new LC comes out, it is disparaged as the antichrist, then 10-15 years later you can't swing a dead cat at CM without hitting an 80 series and the 100's are gaining too. The 200 will have front suspension issues due to the welded center diff sections but with a moderate lift and 33's I don't see why it won't dominate in the overland/expedition/light to moderate wheeling that it was designed to do. If you want more hard core...get a dedicated offroader and forget the idea of doing highway travel.
Lates,
Graham
I really don't think there is much of an argument to be made here, as a matter of fact, it is just plain hypocritical. To say that using crawl mode lessens the point of driving, creates lazy people, or people who can't drive is ridiculous. Couldn't you say the same thing about lockers? To me the list of difficulty on a trail goes from open diffs to ATRAC to Crawl Control to lockers. So, from where I'm sitting your 80 on 35's fully locked is as easy as it gets. Perhaps your too lazy to drive an unmodified open diff vehicle, or worse yet, you lack the skills to get the job done without all the extras.
Beo is dead on. The group of people looking to test the rig to its fullest is a very small minority. The Turkish/American Toyota Parts Guru is an even smaller minority that I'm convinced Toyota corporate does not have a demographic bar graph for. I'm sure they spend a great deal of money to determine what the world's needs/wants are. I know I'm not the reason they made the 200, but lucky for me, I get to use one anyway. Mine will live a pretty comfy life, until it gets older, then it will show its true LC heritage. I love the looks of a 70 series, they are flat out cool, but not available.
Everything mechanical has a chance to break. I don't see crawl mode increasing your chances of being stranded. It's based off the ABS system, just a modified ATRAC. How many failures of the ABS system and ATRAC do you hear about? Maybe it is happening but I haven't seen it. So the crawl control fails.....oh no!! I guess I'll get out a strap or hit the fricking gas harder, same thing I would do if my elocker decides to take a dump.
The rest of the truck is the normal extra stout cruiser build I have grown to love. The truck feels heavy, handles well for a big truck and hauls ass if I want it too. The inside is nice and sturdy without all the extranious bling...it just works.
Everytime a new LC comes out, it is disparaged as the antichrist, then 10-15 years later you can't swing a dead cat at CM without hitting an 80 series and the 100's are gaining too. The 200 will have front suspension issues due to the welded center diff sections but with a moderate lift and 33's I don't see why it won't dominate in the overland/expedition/light to moderate wheeling that it was designed to do. If you want more hard core...get a dedicated offroader and forget the idea of doing highway travel.
Lates,
Graham
Too funny as usual. Beno likes to pose the same stuff in the 200 section.
I really don't think there is much of an argument to be made here, as a matter of fact, it is just plain hypocritical. To say that using crawl mode lessens the point of driving, creates lazy people, or people who can't drive is ridiculous. Couldn't you say the same thing about lockers? To me the list of difficulty on a trail goes from open diffs to ATRAC to Crawl Control to lockers. So, from where I'm sitting your 80 on 35's fully locked is as easy as it gets. Perhaps your too lazy to drive an unmodified open diff vehicle, or worse yet, you lack the skills to get the job done without all the extras.
Beo is dead on. The group of people looking to test the rig to its fullest is a very small minority. The Turkish/American Toyota Parts Guru is an even smaller minority that I'm convinced Toyota corporate does not have a demographic bar graph for. I'm sure they spend a great deal of money to determine what the world's needs/wants are. I know I'm not the reason they made the 200, but lucky for me, I get to use one anyway. Mine will live a pretty comfy life, until it gets older, then it will show its true LC heritage. I love the looks of a 70 series, they are flat out cool, but not available.
Everything mechanical has a chance to break. I don't see crawl mode increasing your chances of being stranded. It's based off the ABS system, just a modified ATRAC. How many failures of the ABS system and ATRAC do you hear about? Maybe it is happening but I haven't seen it. So the crawl control fails.....oh no!! I guess I'll get out a strap or hit the fricking gas harder, same thing I would do if my elocker decides to take a dump.
The rest of the truck is the normal extra stout cruiser build I have grown to love. The truck feels heavy, handles well for a big truck and hauls ass if I want it too. The inside is nice and sturdy without all the extranious bling...it just works.
Everytime a new LC comes out, it is disparaged as the antichrist, then 10-15 years later you can't swing a dead cat at CM without hitting an 80 series and the 100's are gaining too. The 200 will have front suspension issues due to the welded center diff sections but with a moderate lift and 33's I don't see why it won't dominate in the overland/expedition/light to moderate wheeling that it was designed to do. If you want more hard core...get a dedicated offroader and forget the idea of doing highway travel.
Lates,
Graham
I actually like the 200 a lot.
I'm just being contrartian...little ornery these days....
Graham - I didn't realize that you owned a 200. I'm jealous of the 5.7 liter V-8. I am remembering something like 380 hp? Sounds just right.
I agree with your thoughts. Lockers are right up there with technology that makes it easier to wheel, and the crawl mode is just a different step on the same ladder. I was actually quite impressed with the way the 200 series wheeled in Arizona. It's a nice truck with loads of power. Maybe Christo will swap in a solid axle for me on a 200 when I win the lottery.
Evan
I agree with your thoughts. Lockers are right up there with technology that makes it easier to wheel, and the crawl mode is just a different step on the same ladder. I was actually quite impressed with the way the 200 series wheeled in Arizona. It's a nice truck with loads of power. Maybe Christo will swap in a solid axle for me on a 200 when I win the lottery.
Evan
I actually like the 200 a lot.
I'm just being contrartian...little ornery these days....
Awe man.... I was hoping for more out of you.
TroutRunner said:Awe man.... I was hoping for more out of you.
I went to both factories where the 200 is assembled; they are not cutting any corners.
It's a damn quality vehicle...one for doctor salaries!
Random thoughts from an O.F. who cut his teeth on dual level transfer cases and dual lever locking hubs....
Like it or not, the world is changing.
Seems like we will be off-roading electric vehicles at some point in the future.
Much of the technology is very good.
But intimidating.
Grafting the electronics from that Chevy Vortec into the electronics of my 80 scared me away from that project.
But I would have never considered swapping in a carbureted V8.
On the other hand there is an elegant simplicity to old tech that is proven and solid.
Gears and suspension on a mountain bike provides untold benefit - but is not necessary for a great ride.
I will take my 20 year old single speed 9 times out of 10 over the new hi-tech machine.
But I'll go slower and work harder. But that's what I like - its a spiritual thing.
My Tacoma has a manual tranny which can be a real challenge off road - but I prefer a stick on the highway.
Then there is technology for technology's sake. Look at all the crap on your cell phone....
Toyota is guilty as I am finding out with my foray into the Tacoma and the 100 series LC.
I HATE that transfer case knob in my truck. What the heck is wrong with a lever that will always work and you will always know what gear the case is in???
Perhaps the best example of Toyota's foolishness is that touch screen in the 100: A poorly conceived mashup of menu-driven controls and old fashioned knobs and buttons.
On the other hand there is that maintenance free (practically) powerful V8 - variable valve timing. Imagine that.
And the safety stuff. Who would not want some help from the computers in a scary highway situation?
And all those airbags surrounding the kids..
Still..... gadgets, gizmos, systems, wires, pipes, sensors, chips...too early to know how this stuff will hold up in the long run. How can complex, multi-part systems not fail over time?
I certainly feel better about the 100 with the AHC system replaced with old fashioned springs and shocks.
The 200 Series - Not many people would risk scratching a vehicle that costs as much as a house by taking it off road anyway. Hats off to Graham and that couple on the Sedona run. (I guess).
Finally, any comments on Toyota's recent body styling philosophy?
Like it or not, the world is changing.
Seems like we will be off-roading electric vehicles at some point in the future.
Much of the technology is very good.
But intimidating.
Grafting the electronics from that Chevy Vortec into the electronics of my 80 scared me away from that project.
But I would have never considered swapping in a carbureted V8.
On the other hand there is an elegant simplicity to old tech that is proven and solid.
Gears and suspension on a mountain bike provides untold benefit - but is not necessary for a great ride.
I will take my 20 year old single speed 9 times out of 10 over the new hi-tech machine.
But I'll go slower and work harder. But that's what I like - its a spiritual thing.
My Tacoma has a manual tranny which can be a real challenge off road - but I prefer a stick on the highway.
Then there is technology for technology's sake. Look at all the crap on your cell phone....
Toyota is guilty as I am finding out with my foray into the Tacoma and the 100 series LC.
I HATE that transfer case knob in my truck. What the heck is wrong with a lever that will always work and you will always know what gear the case is in???
Perhaps the best example of Toyota's foolishness is that touch screen in the 100: A poorly conceived mashup of menu-driven controls and old fashioned knobs and buttons.
On the other hand there is that maintenance free (practically) powerful V8 - variable valve timing. Imagine that.
And the safety stuff. Who would not want some help from the computers in a scary highway situation?
And all those airbags surrounding the kids..
Still..... gadgets, gizmos, systems, wires, pipes, sensors, chips...too early to know how this stuff will hold up in the long run. How can complex, multi-part systems not fail over time?
I certainly feel better about the 100 with the AHC system replaced with old fashioned springs and shocks.
The 200 Series - Not many people would risk scratching a vehicle that costs as much as a house by taking it off road anyway. Hats off to Graham and that couple on the Sedona run. (I guess).
Finally, any comments on Toyota's recent body styling philosophy?
Juane, I think you summed it up pretty good. Unfortunately, I'd say your quote above is the way it is.
Time will tell if "Change" is an improvement or not...didn't we have an election based on change or something?
G
I'm with Juane here. The transfer case switch in my Taco runs a motor that operates the t-case for Hi or Lo. It's a switch, it'll fail and not work, or leave you stuck in a ratio you don't want. It runs a motor that will someday fail. They are finicky brand new. The FJCruiser has a lever. Go figure. ATRAC is OK, but it's brakes, not a locker, and run by a computer with info from sensors. Too complex? Time will tell. Snag a soft brake line and it definitely won't be your "locker". It's first on the To Be Replaced list. I have modified some of the stuff on my truck but am stuck with the rest because there's no practical way to disable them as they are part of larger systems. Toyota has seen a bit of the writing on the wall and given us switches to disable some things that would be dangerous in some situations. Situations not unfamiliar to many of you. I don't know about the Hilux the rest of the world gets. It's built on a more rugged chassis (many of which are under water just outside Bangkok right now) but I don't know if it has also succumbed to electric and electronic systems vs. manual bits. Do they follow in the shadow of the new Cruisers?
As mentioned above, these vehicles are not aimed at our demographic. The vast majority will never see a mile offroad. These are just the changes we have to face in an environment of total fascination with technology. Beno makes an excellent point about fixing or disabling a complex electronic system miles from nowhere. The KISS principle is certainly applicable here, but we're just going to have to get used to what we're going to have going forward. Or keep your 80 for life. Maybe not a bad idea.
I sure hope the "switch" on my elocker "motor" doesn't fail on my 80. 
A quick google search of "switch failure toyota transfercase",interestingly, came up with 80 elocker failures and the FJCruiser (lever
) transfercase failures.
Again, only time will tell, but I would think the numbr of times a switch is used will dictate it's lifetime. I'm sure the switches has some computerized robot turn them and have been determined to last "X" amount of turns.
It would be interesting if the FJC lever is just a long switch and not a mechanical adjustment?
Some change is good, some change is bad. Look at medicine, a lot of cool things can be done to save people but not all are making cures. We mearly are better at slowing processes and keep people "alive". On the other hand, you come see me with a heart attack, chances are I already saw your ekg from the EMS rig via email, talked with the cardiologist, and called the cath lab before you arrive. When you show up I introduce myself and tell you what is going to happen, you are gone to be fixed in less than 5 minutes. Awesome.
A quick google search of "switch failure toyota transfercase",interestingly, came up with 80 elocker failures and the FJCruiser (lever
) transfercase failures.Again, only time will tell, but I would think the numbr of times a switch is used will dictate it's lifetime. I'm sure the switches has some computerized robot turn them and have been determined to last "X" amount of turns.
It would be interesting if the FJC lever is just a long switch and not a mechanical adjustment?
Some change is good, some change is bad. Look at medicine, a lot of cool things can be done to save people but not all are making cures. We mearly are better at slowing processes and keep people "alive". On the other hand, you come see me with a heart attack, chances are I already saw your ekg from the EMS rig via email, talked with the cardiologist, and called the cath lab before you arrive. When you show up I introduce myself and tell you what is going to happen, you are gone to be fixed in less than 5 minutes. Awesome.
Interesting thread (for me at least) because when it was time to dump the FJ40 I bought the FJ60 for it's simplicity. Fix it it on the fly with most things. When it was time for the V8 swap (which actually simplified things even more - no more smog computers or vacuum lines to deal with) the 80 craze was on and I got grief for not going that route. Now the coversation has come full circle as to whether all the electronic doo-dads on modern SUVs are a good thing or bad. I'll stick with simple; levers over switches, etc. So maybe people are now coming to my side of the philosophy - KISS?
I'm encouraged that I might get a little respect because my Hundy still has a lever for the center diff/T-case.
Having wrenched on a few Hundy's now, I am actually pretty impressed with the rig....a lot. It'll be the next cruiser I get indeed.
As I mentioned in an earlier post the SBC is actually simpler than an FJ60 2F. No 100 miles of vacuum lines, no VSVs, no carb with goofy things like a choke
eek or vacuum operated secondary, no emissions computer that operated a bunch of non-emission functions. No EGR cooler and it's leaky seals. No CAT that weighs 100lbs and likes to get clogged. No three piece exhaust manifold to leak. The list goes on.The list of items I replaced account for the whole fuel injection system and all were spares I had on hand, so no real out of pocket. Each can be replaced in 5 to 10 minutes with rudimentary tools.
60K miles of plug & play reliability, given that it was cobbled together with boneyard parts, I have no regrets.
To answer the basic question, the Chebby runs fine on the road but the idle is still lumpy. Probably have an intake leak that I'll address when my kid's soccer season is over.
Of course it still has a whine from the AC clutch bearing and also desperately needs new rear U-joints, all delayed maintenance.
I need to run to Farmington tomorrow, so if I never have any additional posts to MUD look for my bleached bones somewhere along 550 next to the hulk of a red FJ60 with a bad 350.
Wow. I want what works off road, reliably. I'm dead sold on straight axle Suzukis, if they could go overland and pass smog. But they don't, so I drive Toyota. They're a reliable vehicle that are designed to be put through hell off-road. They'll all break eventually.
The cruiserheads in NM will have that FJ60 picked clean long before your bones are bleached so we'll have to look for your remains beside yet another rusted hunk of Detroit cast iron with Chevrolet valve covers.
I've got dibs on your H55.
-Mike-