New project, why now?

[Mtbcoach]

I must have crapped in my karma's cornflakes or something...

Woke to find the hot water heater leaked a few gallons (thankfully, its in the basement = no damage), needs replacement. Replaced the one in my old house 4 years ago, just my luck.

Quick questions:

- we have any plumbers in the club?
- any one with experience with tankless heaters?

I've always wondered why we don't use them in the US. My travels in Europe, most homes I visited had them and they worked well. When the one went bad a few years ago, I researched at the time and went conventional since I knew we would be selling soon.

I been burning my morning researching what has changed and it looks like the products are improving and I'd still get $500 tax rebate, helping with the initial cost. But, its still ~2x over conventional + installation.

Really, I'm just whining since it just puts another road block in getting my FJC back on the road so I can go the Exped thing this weekend. I'd guess that it took a crap moments after I hit the "buy" button when I committed the $$$ to go...

 

[fourtrax]

Jerry, I don't have any experence with the tankless heaters but I have seen them for sale recently. If you need some help let me know i have installed more hot water heater then i care to count.

 

[mtweller]

If you are having to replace after just 4 years due to leaking, sounds like a pressure problem to me. Is there an expansion tank installed? If so, I'd make sure to check / replace it first.

I think the tankless are becoming fairly common now and most any plumber worth his salt will be able to tell you about what's available. With that said, I don't have any reco.

R

 

[S4Cruiser]

We have a tank-less unit in the house that we are leasing. Works great - could take a hot shower all day long. We even had 5 people shower back to back / at the same time and it worked great.

I can check on the model when I get home...unfortunately I have no experience installing them.

I'll never have anything else...unless there is no access to natural gas, etc.

 

[Mtbcoach]

If you are having to replace after just 4 years due to leaking, sounds like a pressure problem to me. Is there an expansion tank installed? If so, I'd make sure to check / replace it first.

I think the tankless are becoming fairly common now and most any plumber worth his salt will be able to tell you about what's available. With that said, I don't have any reco.

R

My mistake, replaced the unit in the OLD house before moving to this one. Just good timing to get to replace them in every house I live in. And, yes, I do have an expansion tank.

Went to Home Depot since they carry the Rheem units that get good reviews. Highly rated unit, priced at $900. OK, $300 over replacement of what I have now (Energy Star, blah, blah, blah). Installation STARTS at $1400.

Checking all the details, I've got required 3/4" natural gas line, 5" vent and 120v right there. It "seems" like it couldn't be any more difficult than what I have now. Water line in, hot water line out, vent into existing vent, wire 120v to controller, run flexible 3/4" nat gas line to unit. $1400, I'll take that job. It's obvious they don't want consumers even weighing the option when you pay 175% of the unit cost for installation.

Regina just wants it fixed without stress, that means $550 + install ($200 if we pay for install), if I was smart, that is what I should do but we all know where I stand there...

 

[Mtbcoach]

Jerry, I don't have any experence with the tankless heaters but I have seen them for sale recently. If you need some help let me know i have installed more hot water heater then i care to count.

Thanks for the offer Eric. As I posted above, we are still weighing all the options. Priority...Inchworm install or hot showers...

 

[Mtbcoach]

Just to close this thread out...

I had 2 plumbers here this morning, 2 estimates from each: replace with conventional or with tankless. Each guy noted that I had everything to make the install easy: 3/4" high-pressue natural gas, 120v and easy access to vent outside. Conventional replacement (50gal) - $790 and $890, tankless replacement - $2100 and $2700-3100 (2nd high estimate was for a newer, more efficient unit), manufacturer and model numbers identical (Rheem conventional and Rinnai tankless).

As much as a person might want to make a "green" decision, who, in their right mind would drop almost 3x to do it. Energy costs drop from $325/yr conventional to $175/yr for the most efficient, that would take over 15 yrs for a break even at today's prices. Even with the Fed rebate (10% of total bill, not to exceed $500), PSNC rebate of $100, still a tough pill to swallow.

I had Capital Plumbing (Dave) drop the new unit in, he got it done in a couple hours with a new pressure tank and cleaned up the previous install for $790 out the door, including disposal of old unit. Now, the girls are happy and I can get busy with trying to get my FJC back on the road for this weekend.

Thanks for everyone's offer of help and feedback...

 

[lt1fire]

Tankless ones will last longer though so you have to factor that into the argument. It's like an auto zone part vs an oem toyota part.

But the cost is a factor. I used to work at roto rooter so I was well versed on the pros and cons. I think that all new developments should have tankless ones included from the get go really but to the average joe doing a retro job always seems like a rip off.

 

[fourtrax]

sweet, other then a slight bump in efficiency for the tankless, the only solid benefit is the ability to take a shower without having to worry about running out of hot water... But, that might actually cause your water bill to tripple.

 

[GarnerFJ40]

When mine goes, I'm going tankless. Save space in the "garage", and 3 girls will mean a lot of hot water!

 

[PhrogsPhorever]

Had tankless in the casa when I was living in Japan, they are awesome.

Good that you have natural gas, I've heard from a few people who have the electric ones that they are good, but not as good as the gas version keeping the constant flow of hot water.

Granted, that was a few years ago, the electric ones may be better now.

 

[NCFJ]

The electric tankless units pale when compared to the gas units.

 

[GarnerFJ40]

Just to close this thread out...

I had 2 plumbers here this morning, 2 estimates from each: replace with conventional or with tankless. Each guy noted that I had everything to make the install easy: 3/4" high-pressue natural gas, 120v and easy access to vent outside. Conventional replacement (50gal) - $790 and $890, tankless replacement - $2100 and $2700-3100 (2nd high estimate was for a newer, more efficient unit), manufacturer and model numbers identical (Rheem conventional and Rinnai tankless).

As much as a person might want to make a "green" decision, who, in their right mind would drop almost 3x to do it. Energy costs drop from $325/yr conventional to $175/yr for the most efficient, that would take over 15 yrs for a break even at today's prices. Even with the Fed rebate (10% of total bill, not to exceed $500), PSNC rebate of $100, still a tough pill to swallow.

I had Capital Plumbing (Dave) drop the new unit in, he got it done in a couple hours with a new pressure tank and cleaned up the previous install for $790 out the door, including disposal of old unit. Now, the girls are happy and I can get busy with trying to get my FJC back on the road for this weekend.

Thanks for everyone's offer of help and feedback...

Jerry,

Sounds like the same argument for going with a diesel. It would be years down the road before the cost benefit would make the purchase viable, but you have to think of the dependability factor, and make that as a factor. Plus they take up less room, and you could place it outside the house if needed...

 

[lt1fire]

and think of the conversation it would cause

 

[Mtbcoach]

Jerry,

Sounds like the same argument for going with a diesel. It would be years down the road before the cost benefit would make the purchase viable, but you have to think of the dependability factor, and make that as a factor. Plus they take up less room, and you could place it outside the house if needed...

I'd say that if I were keeping the home for an extended period, or if it added any resale value, then it could push things to go that route.

At this point, I don't know that I'll be staying here for another 10 years nor do I believe it will be an added value to the next potential buyer.

I agree that it makes a lot of sense, this is the second time I've gone through this process as I mentioned in my first post, now and ~4 years ago. In both cases, the installation is so high, it makes it difficult to rationalize.

In my case, I easily could have done it myself if I had the time and inclination. The unit cost is ~ 150% ($550-600 conventional, $1k-1300 for tankless) of a conventional unit but the installation price goes from ~$200 to $1000 for the tankless.

In my case, both plumbers wanted to install its own pressure regulator (even though I had one for the existing 3/4" high pressure natural gas line), they had to do some minor moving of cold/hot lines, cut a hole and run the vent (it would have been mounted to an exterior wall, venting directly out that wall = easy), pull 120v for the controller and all the associated hardware.

Both said ~ 2hrs for conventional, 1/2 day for tankless.

When the house full of females are whining about not having hot water and you tell them it will be another day or so for the tankless or we can hot water by afternoon and it will save $1400 to have it now, conventional it is...