Mark Levinson: How Common? (2 Viewers)
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It looks like this might be related to searching for 2-row versions. Edmunds pricing tool does not list it as an available option if you select 2 rows. At least that explains why none of the ones I searched for has it. Seems a daft thing to delete the stereo upgrade just because the car has one less row of seats.
I think that ML has always been an option...but most dealers order the ML option because most people wants it.
I stand corrected.
When I bought, it seemed like LX's practically only came one way with the exception of pre-collision, auto-start, and rear-entertainment IIRC.
I just looked back at a brochure and you are absolutely correct:
I think that the ML Reference is top notch.......so, it would be almost a crime to your ears if someone did not get that option.
"Also, do yourself a favor and get the ML. Trust me its worth it. "
I have to disagree, I have the ML in my 2013 LX and have so far been thoroughly underwhelmed by it's performance. I know some other folks here have said similar. It sounds like everything is pumped through the dashboard speaker, no matter how I adjust the sound settings it still sounds like that dash speaker carries 90% of the load. If I paid for it in a new LX I would be fuming. Sounds no better than the factory JBL system I had in my '11 Sienna.
Listen to one first but I def. would not make it a criteria in a purchase decision.
I have to disagree, I have the ML in my 2013 LX and have so far been thoroughly underwhelmed by it's performance. I know some other folks here have said similar. It sounds like everything is pumped through the dashboard speaker, no matter how I adjust the sound settings it still sounds like that dash speaker carries 90% of the load. If I paid for it in a new LX I would be fuming. Sounds no better than the factory JBL system I had in my '11 Sienna.
Listen to one first but I def. would not make it a criteria in a purchase decision.
I think that the ML Reference is top notch.......so, it would be almost a crime to your ears if someone did not get that option.
I'm trying to remember a conversation I had with a friend of mine from high school that owns a group of car and home audio stores. He told me that all OEM car speakers are horrible, and told me the ML speakers are no better, and said the ML speakers are harder to replace due to limited replacement options due to them being 8 OHM.
I'm not an audiophile by any means, but I have seen amazing performance quality increases every time I replace OEM speakers (making sure the replacements are low power equivalents to match the factory amp, or replacing the entire system). I think people get a placebo effect when they buy a "premium" OEM system thinking it sounds better than it actually does.
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That's because it is correct. The front door woofers are for midBASS only. No vocal. This is intentional. Vocals and high frequencies don't need big drivers...thus they are relegated to the dash speakers (3.5" i think midrange and 1" tweeter)...and because they are dash height, the sound stage is HIGHER up and engineers can use the windshield (acoustic in Lexus) to bounce the music around to get a wider sound stage.
The front door woofers are there for low end emphasis. It works in conjunction with the rear lower door woofers AND the subwoofer in cargo to give you bass at every sitting position. This is what they call...Distributed Subwoofer System (DSS).
If you only have a subwoofer in the cargo area (open air no less), then you won't have enough bass reaching the front...and if you crank that subwoofer up, then it will be very uncomfortable for the 2nd and 3rd row dwellers. Yes, bass is non-directional, but in a car with a tiny subwoofer you can indeed feel/hear where it is coming from. Thus, JBL/Harman/ML came up with DSS. DSS allows for decent bass all around so that you have a balanced sound no matter where you sit.
And if you're wondering, yes, most sounds SHOULD come from the FRONT of you...despite ML Reference is 7.1 architecture. The 7.1 is not like your home theater. The 7.1 just refers to that everyone in the car should have similar sound stage (again, everyone should hear music coming from in front of them)...and to do that, you need the 7.1 architecture. It is NOT meant to hear a bullet flying from front to rear of you.
The REFERENCE part is from having the same midrange and tweeter combo in 7 locations. The 0.1 part is the from the 4 door woofers and the cargo subwoofer...acting as ONE subwoofer. In addition, the ML Reference amp is more powerful than non-reference ML.
In the NON-Reference Mark Levinson (in Lexus GX for example), you are missing the rear door woofers and it has a weaker amp...and you notice it too! The rear passengers (2nd row) don't get the same bass as the front seat.
The JBL system in the LC is missing even more. The front (dash) center channel and rear surround (all the way in the back cargo) is just one speaker, not midrange & tweeter that you get in ML system. The rear door (like non-Referrence ML) does not have the lower woofer to make bass...it only has a midrange / tweeter. And of course, the JBL amp is slightly weaker and probably not as clean sounding as the ML amps.
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Yeah, some ML speakers are paper cone. But they do use Neodymium magnets throughout, which is not that common in the aftermarket speakers...you usually have to buy mid-range to high end aftermarket speakers to get Neo mags.
Paper is NOT a bad material to use...it is lightweight & stiff enough...and is just fine for audio quality...and is used in some home audio speakers. The problem of paper is durability...and that could be a problem in a car exposed to the elements. But, if Harman/ML/JBL etc have found a way to make their paper cones durable, then i am OK with it.
But, unlike most aftermarket system that is plug&play, the key to good audio is not in speaker materials...it is in the tuning and signal processing. This is something that very few aftermarket system can match a good OEM system like ML Reference....unless you go high end. How clean it sounds? How loud it can go without clipping? How balance is it? How is the sound stage...is it wider than the A pillars? And so on.
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It's a fair statement. This goes to show that not everyone is looking for the same thing from their audio system. Some people look for exciting audio equalization, surround processing, bass SPL, shiny speaker materials, you name it.
That said, I absolutely agree with @Magtiger. I consider myself an audiophile having built many car audio systems and having significant home audio systems. I've actually gutted every single car audio I've owned. Except the LX.
The LX Mark Levinson system harkens back to more audiophile purist qualities of tuning. You're not going to see over-exaggerated tuning here (some would say colorization). Not going to spatially process (distort) the sound stage for surround. Overemphasized bass that is one-note bass like many low-riders. Paper cones - actually some of the most highest end home speakers use paper/pulp/fiber because it's a material that has the right qualities and doesn't tend to colorize the sound coming out of the driver.
Audiophiles look for a properly imaged sound stage. Where one can pinpoint locate a vocal, a trumpet, spatially across the front with good separation. As if you were at a live performance. Audiophiles want flat response, as the track was mastered by professionals to be presented. Audiophiles want bass extension where one can hear a melody in the bass track with fast transient response for a kick drums, that actually sounds like a kick drum.
Because the Mark Levinson system presents with such transparency, source is critically important. Give it a low quality, low bit-rate, and you'll hear every bit of disappointment as the source lays out naked without any processing or equalization to mask it as more exciting. I'd revisit how your driving the system. Cell phone? BT? Quality of those streams/components?
Is it a perfect system? No. But it's does great to hit many of the right marks that I'm more than satisfied. If I had an LC, that system would have been the first thing to get ripped out. It's like fine wine or coffee, once you've had a taste for the good stuff, there's no going back.
Give it a high quality feed and the sounds absolutely come alive. It sings. You can hear texture in strings, guitars, voices. I haven't even touched on its surround abilities which I thoroughly enjoy as my kids watch their movies on rear display. I judge kids movies based on their soundtracks.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to write it out.
I guess my sound "palette" is not sophisticated enough to appreciate it. Sounds ok to me. The upfront vocals seem to drown out the rest of the sound. Maybe that is how it is supposed to be. Comparing it to the sound in my '17 4Runner and '11 Sienna my reactions is, Meh. I'd be pissed if I laid down that much $$ for Meh. If I were buying a new LX I would def. pass on the option.
I would expect to be like "F**K yeah" what a difference over my other two Toyotas but I just don't feel that. But at least I now know why is sounds the way it sounds.
I have the JBL system in my 2017 Sienna Limited. It does pump out lots of bass! Dear God, who the hell calibrated it like that in a MINIVAN?! But due to no tweeter and all you have are midrange speakers that try to do too much, the midrange and up sound horrible. No separation of musical instruments. Now, when i get into my Sienna, i just listen to talk radio....
The JBL in LC is about same as non-Reference ML in the Lexus GX 460 that i had. Maybe the GX ML is ever so slightly clearer up top but the LC has ever so slightly better bass. So, it's a toss up. I like it though. No plans to do anything with it.
But the REFERENCE ML in the LX is definitely a step up esp for 2nd row passengers.
In my much younger years, i used to tinker with car audio in the driveway....i am glad those days are over with!
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- #16
Well, for me, this has been a very informative thread.
So the real question now is: what systems can equal the ML? Since it is not available in a two row LX, is any high end system, well installed going to just as good? I assume here that the two-row base LX has the same sound deadening and acoustics, etc.
So the real question now is: what systems can equal the ML? Since it is not available in a two row LX, is any high end system, well installed going to just as good? I assume here that the two-row base LX has the same sound deadening and acoustics, etc.
get the ML option but you need 3 rows.
the parts and labor of an aftermarket system will likely cost the same if not more than the ML option.
do you really want some pimple popping kid tearing apart your LX dash??!!
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- #18
I thought about that. I'd definitely rather not have someone monkeying around the interior, but there is premium to be paid for the three rows, only to have them taken out. I guess it is all down to costs.
I spent 6k putting a focal system into my trd pro 4Runner a few years ago. One of the dumbest things I’ve ever done. Hi fi and cars are like fire and ice. If you’re insistent on audio get the ML. I went for the 2 row because I know myself and I’ll probably trade her in in 2-3 years and I’m confident I’ll do better with the price I paid on the 2 row. I wasn’t impressed with the burmeister in the new GLS I drove either for the record.
