Looking for help with a V8 Fj60 conversion

[Gumby]

I'm running a 6.2L GM flywheel with a CF pressure plate and clutch disc.

By conversion clutch he means one that is used in their conversion kit. It's the same clutch but releases with less pressure.

I think you probably have a GM set up all the way around. I would think that would be fine in most applications.

 

[mica]

Hello, I am V8FJ60's (the thread-starter's) husband. I just made a new account so I don't have to hijack her username and such -- this is my first post .

Gumby -- thank you for all of the input, and I don't think anyone will mind if you move the thread to a more appropriate location. In fact, the first post in this thread was asking if this was the right place to post. Does the tech section cover FJ60's though? While you're at it, perhaps the title could be changed to something like "clutch issues with v8 conversions?"

Anyway, back on topic: Gumby, you say that the GM parts should work fine, but I believe what we're experiencing with our converted FJ60 (among our other interesting booty-fab issues and such) is that the GM pressure plate requires too much throw to engage and disengage the clutch. My understanding is that a pressure plate requiring less throw (along with proper, corresponding disc and throw-out bearing) will solve the issue. In your case, I'm sure the Downey pressure plate will do the trick. In our case, we're still trying to work it out, but it looks like choices include: 1. the advance adapter pressure plate specific to V8-LC conversions, 2. the Toyota pressure plate (somebody mentioned this worked well for their conversion), or 3. a "low profile" GM pressure plate (not sure what this is, but a tech at Specter told me to use one).

Thanks again to everyone for the awesome input. I belong to another automotive forum (specific to another car I have) and trust me, this place (ih8mud) is awesome. It's wonderful to see people post constructive and helpful information instead of rude flaming and senseless name-calling.

 

[Gumby]

I just got my clutch out today. The pressure plate that came out is definately different than the one that I have on the shelf. The release tabs are quite a bit higher on the one that came out. I think I mixed them up. I will attempt to get part numbers tomorrow when I put it back together.

I guarantee the low profile p-plate is not $275. They are tripling what you could buy it for anywhere else. In fact, my guess is it will be around $50-70.

 

[Mike S]

here, or the 60/62 60/62 tech board here,

But do you know what conversion kit has been used?

and can you upload some pics of what you have if not to this thread?

Normally, an adjustable push rod can solve the noirmal issue, unless the cause is like V8 hilux conversion, where the exhaust runs to close to the slave .

THIS IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO POST.

Shed - you're going to give me a headache with the loop link.

Enough, already!

Mike S.

 

[FL cruiser]

GM Hyd throw out bearing

If you end up looking at the GM hyd throw out bearing again, here's what I've found:

The 95- up GM trucks that came with a Hyd bearing used a .72 bore clutch master. The stroke on the bore is longer than a stock Toyota master to move more fluid. A Toyota master probably wouldn't move enough fluid.

I got a Wilwood 3/4" single outlet matser cyl without a residual valve. Only $55 at Jegs or summit.

A 95-up GM pressure plate has more releasing movement per amount of push from the bearing. I was told to use this pressure plate. Other people told me the older pressure plates should work ok, but I played it safe and got the later model.

A 12" clutch fits in as easy as an 11" clutch.

The GM release bearing has a funky connection where the pressure hose attaches. You better find a hose on Ebay or the junkyard, otherwise you'll end up paying a $100 for a hose you are going to end up cutting and modifying just to get the end off.

I'm using a bell housing, clutch and internal throw out bearing off a 96 Chevy truck. Haven't finished up the install yet, so can't say how well it works or if it works yet.

 

[Gumby]

THIS IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO POST.

Shed - you're going to give me a headache with the loop link.

Enough, already!

Mike S.

I moved the post over here a couple of days ago. It was not too hard core.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Hey Gumby

Got anymore pics of that chick in your avatar?

Thanks

Sorry guys, couldnt resist!!

 

[Gumby]

Salma Hayak as Serindipidy in Dogma.

I had a link to a video of the scene someplace.

 

[mica]

Gumby,

Any updates on your clutch parts? Please let us know if you figure out which type of GM clutch will do the trick (low profile, etc?) and how to identify it (i.e. part numbers, or photos, or year and application, etc.).

Update on our mystery rig: The clutch master is not a toyota part . . . seems to be some sort of GM master (maybe?) slapped onto the cruiser firewall. Also, the pedal arm has been cut and re-welded to provide extra throw . . . which as the effect of making the resting position of the clutch pedal way too high. It's all very frustrating and strange.

So far, here's what we know: Cut/rewelded clutch pedal arm, GM master cylinder?, GM slave cylinder, original (short) LC clutch fork with welded extension, booger-booty-welded slave bracket, Aftermarke GM racing-style bellhousing (a.k.a. "scatter shield"), custom adapter between bellhousing and original Toyota 4-spd tranny, mystery internals (believed to be all GM parts).

Whew. . . quite a mess. I'll post again when we pull the tranny and find out what's inside.

Does anybody see a problem with using a GM master and GM slave? Seems to me that the parts should be compatible with GM internals (assuming the master, slave, and internals are all from the same GM application). I know the standard route is to use toyota hydraulics, but since the GM stuff is already there, perhaps we can just use it instead of trying to reinstall toyota parts?

 

[gifu]

I'm going to throw in my $.02 here, only cause i went through this with my old V8J60... I ended up dropping my tranny NINE (count'm, 9!) times in about 6 months, trying to get things right. I had bought the truck with a V8 in it, and at the time I had little knowledge of motor swaps (I now feel I am pretty knowledgable, after just doing an Onan diesel swap into my latest 60). I'm going to skip the blow-by-blow of my ordeal and just list the things that I know.

Bellhousings:
I ended up with a chevy V8 bolted to the stock transmission, via an AA aluminum bellhousing. These are expensive new, but I see them all the time for free or very cheap. I have seen plate adapters that worked... and even set-ups exactly like what you have (scatter shield and plate adpater), and I _guess_ it's not a big deal. BUT, if you ever drop the tranny to fix this clutch... I would at least replace the scatter shield with a cast-iron chevy bellhousing... they are open on the bottom and much easier to see what's going on with the clutch. Personally, and I say this after spending _all_ of my free time under my truck (nine times) I would track down the AA bellhousing and be done with it. They are strong, they fit right, and they even have a built in mount for the toy slave cylinder. You don't _have_ to use the AA clutch kit, but you _do_ have to use the AA pilot bushing. ALSO, you have to use an FJ40 clutch fork... the FJ60 one is 1/2" too short.

Clutch:
I have done lots of research on which clutch to use. I am still convinced that somewhere, there is a stock chevy clutch that works correctly in this application (namely, has a short enough release to work with the throw of the TO bearinng and the stock hydraulics). BUT, I have tried 4 different chevy clutches... mechanical, hydraulic, low profile, 11", 12", and a combo of chevy pressure and toy disk. This really explains why I ended up doing this Nine (f---ing) times. Recently, on the diesel, I tried _again_ to find a stock chevy clutch that works.... and guess what I will be doing when the weather improves? That's right... changing my clutch (different project, so the counter resets). The lesson I'm trying to say here... pony up the $275 for the clutch. Make sure you get the special pilot bushing. AND, be sure to give them (AA or CF) s*** for selling a Luk brand clutch (it's stamped right on there) with fancy marketing, for 3 times what it should cost.

Hydraulics
Not sure what to say here regarding the chebby hydraulics. if it were me... i'd go find a new/used clutch pedal, master and slave...

Your Mess of a Chevy Converted 60:
Aside from the booty fab, i can't even remember what the real problem is. And I don't know what your budget (time and/or money) is... It would be expensive to pay a mechanic to fix this. It would be cheap to do it yourself, but dropping a tranny is time consuming and a PITA (again, ask me how I know). I would at least ditch the chevy hydraulics. I think you are going to have to drop the tranny at one point, to ditch the booty-fab fork. And if you are, I'd just do it all, do it once, and be done with it. Learn from my mistakes.

 

[gifu]

OK, I went back and read what the actual problem was. This is the one of the problems I had as well. You can probably play with different slaves and masters... and might finally get it right. As stated above, I went with the correct clutch and it solved my problem.

One other thing to metion about the plate adapters... I'm not sure how well they align the tranny to the engine. This is important for proper clutch engagement. Improper alignment can cause damage to the transmission as well. Why do I bring this up.... well I failed to make sure the the "alignment dowels" were in place on my AA bellhousing. they are two little tabs that, in addition to the 4 bolts holding the tranning in, help align the transmission to the engine. After 3000 miles... the nose cone on my tranny (the thingy that the throw-out brearing rides on)... BROKE. yeah, broke off.

Lastly...
don't get dismayed. A V8 powered FJ60, is soooo sweet. They are classy looking, they are strong, they are comfortable, and fun to drive.

 

[mica]

Gifu,

Thank you very much for the insightful reply:

"just do it all, do it once, and be done with it. Learn from my mistakes."

This is surely good advice. I too was having visions of locating the "right" chevy clutch parts and saving some money off the inflated AA clutch-part-prices, but your endeavors will likely dissuade me from that course. I completely agree that the perfectly chevy parts must exist somewhere though . . .

By the way, here's a link to an awesome, comprehensive write-up on setting-up clutch components with conversions (internals, linkage, hydraulics, actuation arms, etc.). It was written by Heep conversion specialists, but it is VERY thorough and most of it is quite applicable: http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm

I do have some concerns about using the AA bellhousing adapter. The best I can tell (rough measurements), it looks like my (scattershield + custom adapter plate) setup is around 1/4" longer than the part that AA sells. Does anybody know if chevy motormounts (and perhaps the Land Cruiser transmission mounts) will have enough slop in them to absorb 1/4"? I know it doesn't sound like much, but I'd rather not relocate the motor-mounts unless I'm doing something that makes it worthwhile (like swapping-in a ranger torque-splitter).

Also, Gifu, regarding the AA bellhousings, can you tell me where you "see them all the time for free or very cheap?" Sounds great to me! It would solve some of our issues (like the booty-fabbed slave-mount, etc.).

"Lastly...
don't get dismayed. A V8 powered FJ60, is soooo sweet. They are classy looking, they are strong, they are comfortable, and fun to drive."

Thank you for the encouragement . . . it helps a lot . . . . really it does. And yeah, aside from our strange clutch-actuation issues, our cruiser drives great! You're very right, it's a nice combination . . . sweet torque, awesome sound, classic looks . . . . it's really just right, which is why we bought the truck to begin with. I'm sure once we iron-out these few issues we'll be very happy.

Regards,

Mica

 

[gifu]

Regarding the bellhousings: Post a wanted ad on this board and over on pirate4x4. Also, watch Ebay. Also, try calling some of the Cruiser specific shops. There are quite a few people who will take the stick 4 speed out, and install an SM420 or 465... removing the AA bellhousing and using a stock bellhousing.

How do you know the AA bellhousing adapter is 1/4" longer then what you have. The AA bellhousing is longer then a stock chevy bellhousing... which is why you must use the AA pilot bushing. It was designed to stick out of the back of the motor, and support then end of the transmission input shaft. I would be surprised if your scattershield/plate adpater were the correct length, allowing the tranny input shaft to be correctly supported by the stock pilot bushing (unless, my some miracle the PO... who...ahem... booty-fabbed this conversion, was wise enough to get the correct AA pilot bushing.). (edit: I think the reason that AA made the bellhousing "too long", requiring the special bushing, is to allow the TO bearing that extra bit of room to back off the clutch).

All that being said, I am sure you have find 1/4" somewhere. Between the motor mounts, the tranny mount, and the tranny crossmember... there is some flex, and some places to "ovalize" (is that a word?) the hole to gain 1/4".

so... things you need: AA bellhousing, FJ60 pedal, FJ60 clutch/slave, AA/CF clutch/disk, AA pilot bushing, cruiser TO bearing, FJ40 clutch arm, FJ40 pushrod (the pushrod for FJ60 is non-adjustable), and finally, depending on what bastardized starter the PO put in there... you might need a newer starter (just a thought, it might be fine... but who knows what's there with the scatter shield).

This seems like a lot... but it is _nothing_ compared to doing a complete engine conversion.

Another thing... and I only mention this cause you guys seem somewhat new to FJ60's. From the looks of it, I think you have the correct year (late 1985 and newer) to swap the factory 5 speed (h55f). It's a hefty investment... and I don't know what your budget is. But, it's a sweet addition to these trucks.

 

[Gumby]

I'm not sure I would suggest it to anyone, but what it looks like I am going to end up doing is to drill and tap the flywheel for a FJ-60 clutch. I've got a brand new one and I'm not going to drop $275 on a Downey clutch this week. There is plenty of room on the flywheel to line up the p-plate where it does not interfere with any other holes. I have drilled and tapped the holes, chamfered the edges and lined everything up. I did three redundant checks to make sure the p-plate was perfectly centered on the flywheel. I think I will be OK. I will let ya'll know in a couple of days if the whole thing comes apart.

 

[gifu]

interesting approach... wonder what it would cost have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit... so if your holes are just barely off, the balance could correct any offset?

I wish I had more time and energy, I would try some more chevy clutches. the last one I got was a true low profile, hydraulic style clutch. but i just can't get it adjusted to the point where the TO bearing doesn't spin when not engaged... and still have enough throw to disengage the clutch all the way.

i'm going to plop the money down on the CF clutch. but, doing the 5 speed as well... so the clutch cost is hidden by the sticker shock of the tranny.

 

[mica]

Gumby . . . yeah, keep us posted on that approach.

Gifu,

Thanks again for the replies. To answer your question, the way I know (or think I know) that my (scatter-shield + adapter-plate) assembly is longer by around 1/4" than the AA Bellhousing adapter is: I got a drawing (2D, faxed-copy) of the AA adapter directly from AA, which shows the total length of their assembly. I then measured mine with a tape measure, which is admittedly inaccurate, but I did it 5 or 6 times and came-up with consistent results of around 1/4 inch longer for my setup. It could still be an illusion, but it also wouldn't surprise me if it were a bit longer than AA's bellhousing. Whoever did the conversion originally probably just used a plate of whatever kind of metal they had laying around that seemed like about the right thickness. Whether or not the pilot bearing (I guess it's actually a bushing) is the correct model or a correct length is just another mystery of our truck .

I'll try your suggested methods of obtaining an AA adapter . . . I like that idea.

I also like this approach:

"i'm going to plop the money down on the CF clutch. but, doing the 5 speed as well... so the clutch cost is hidden by the sticker shock of the tranny."

I see we think alike. Also, consider this: each time you pull a tranny and replace a clutch assembly, you're saving yourself somewhere between $250 and $800 in labor (just guessing). Therefore, let's call it roughly $500 you "make" by doing the work yourself (each time). I figure by performing the 11 clutch swaps you're describing (9 on the old truck, 2 on the new one), you've got enough justified income (around $5,500) to but some pretty freakin' sweet FJ-accesories, or hey, maybe another truck .

Thanks again,

Mica

 

[gifu]

it's logic like the above, that has led me to own close to 20 land cruisers (not all at once); 7 of them 60 series.

hello, i am a land cruiser-aholic.

 

[mica]

Well, I don't see anything wrong with owning 20 land cruisers, so the logic must be sound . . .

Hey Gifu (or anybody with insight into any of these issues),

I'd like to run my Master Shopping List by you if you don't mind. I may have some of these parts already, but I won't know until I pull the tranny:

* Bellhousing: AA Conversion Bellhousing (searching for a used unit)
* Flywheel: Stock Chevy (hopefully I have the correct one? The AA/CF unit specific to LC/V8's shouldn't be necessary, right?)
* Clutch Disk: AA/CF specific to LC/V8
* Pressure Plate: AA/CF specific to LC/V8
* Throwout Bearing: AA (you mentioned using the LC throwout. wouldn't the AA part be a better/guaranteed fit? Are they the same? it's only $36.88)
* Throwout Bearing Collar: FJ60
* Pilot Bushing: AA specific to LC/V8
* Clutch Fork: FJ40 (AA lists a GM part. I've seen both mentioned. Could these possibly be interchangeable (same distance from pivot to bearing?))
* Clutch Fork Pivot Ball: FJ60 (no idea what's in there right now)
* Clutch Slave: FJ60 (could I just use the FJ40 since I'll be using the FJ40 rod, etc., or are the bores different?)
* Clutch Slave Rod: FJ40 (adjustable)
* Clutch Slave Spring: FJ40 (might have to make spring mounts?)
* Clutch Master: FJ60
* Hydraulic Line(s): FJ60
* Clutch Pedal Assembly: FJ60
* Starter: Stock Chevy (maybe different type than the one I have, but who knows?)

Sound good? Did I miss anything critical?

Thanks,

Mica

 

[gifu]

My notes below (all caps)

* Bellhousing: AA Conversion Bellhousing (searching for a used unit)
YES
* Flywheel: Stock Chevy (hopefully I have the correct one? The AA/CF unit specific to LC/V8's shouldn't be necessary, right?)
YOURS SHOULD BE FINE. MIGHT GET IT RESURFACED.
* Clutch Disk: AA/CF specific to LC/V8
YES
* Pressure Plate: AA/CF specific to LC/V8
YES
* Throwout Bearing: AA (you mentioned using the LC throwout. wouldn't the AA part be a better/guaranteed fit? Are they the same? it's only $36.88)
THATS A GOOD PRICE ANYWAY... FROM WHAT AA COULD TELL ME, THEY USE A STANDARD CRUISER TO BEARING
* Throwout Bearing Collar: FJ60
YOU SHOULD ALREADY HAVE THIS... THEN AGAIN, WHO KNOWS WHAT'S IN THERE
* Pilot Bushing: AA specific to LC/V8
YES
* Clutch Fork: FJ40 (AA lists a GM part. I've seen both mentioned. Could these possibly be interchangeable (same distance from pivot to bearing?))
I CAN'T SEE HOW A CHEVY CLUTCH FORK COULD BE USE WITH THE TOYOTA THROW OUT BEARING COLLAR. WHERE DID YOU SEE THAT LISTED? I THINK MAYBE YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE "REATINING THE THREE SPEED" SECTION. USE THE FJ40 FORK
* Clutch Fork Pivot Ball: FJ60 (no idea what's in there right now)
THIS SHOULD BE ALREADY ON THE AA BELLHOUSING. OTHERWISE, YOU NEED A CRUISER PIVOT BALL (TO MATCH THE CRUISER FORK)
* Clutch Slave: FJ60 (could I just use the FJ40 since I'll be using the FJ40 rod, etc., or are the bores different?)
I GUESS SO. ANYONE KNOW THE DIFFERENT BORES FOR DIFFERENT YEARS?
* Clutch Slave Rod: FJ40 (adjustable)
YES
* Clutch Slave Spring: FJ40 (might have to make spring mounts?)
YES
* Clutch Master: FJ60
YES
* Hydraulic Line(s): FJ60
WOULD BE NICE TO GET THE FJ60 LINES BACK ON THERE, BUT UNLESS YOU FIND A LOCAL 60 BEING PARTED, IT WOULD BE HARD TO SHIP, I THINK. OTHERWISE, RUN METRIC BRAKE LINE.
* Clutch Pedal Assembly: FJ60
YUP
* Starter: Stock Chevy (maybe different type than the one I have, but who knows?)

Sound good? Did I miss anything critical?

HOW ABOUT A 5 SPEED?


Other Notes:
The AA bellhousing's are open on the bottom (like old cast iron Chevy and Cruiser bellhousings)... I never seem to find the correct dust shield. No big deal, but still... anyone know what's right? Dust shield from a chevy? or a Cruiser bellhousing?

Make sure the AA bellhousing has the alignment tabs in it. there are two of them. if they are missing, get them from a stock cruiser bellhousing.

As far as the 1/4" we were talking about, worse case scenario, you get the tranny bolted back up, and find the cross member won't bolt up... have to enlarge or redrill the cross member bolts. no biggie. make sure the tranny/transfer linkage aren't rubbing on the holes in the floorboard.

i can't think of anything else.

 

[mica]

Cool,

Thanks again for the help Gifu.

Regarding the dust shield you asked about, the print-out i got from AA (actually part of the installation instructions I think) mentions their dust shield. Here's the part number:

712532-PLT

I don't know why it's not easy (or possible) to find stuff like this in their catalog, but that should do the trick for you. The same goes for the pilot bearing (PN: 716154). It's not listed in the LC section of their catalog, but it is listed on the instruction sheet I have. Go figure.

Oh, and regarding your suggestion:

"HOW ABOUT A 5 SPEED? "

Hey, I'm saving at least $1K by doing all this work myself, right? That oughta be enough to justify the tranny right there. Right honey? You here?

Take it easy,

Mica