kaymar bumper

[Steve-O]

Alex, the bumper in the picture is a 4plus. The 4x4labs bumper can be seen at www.4x4labs.com and ranges from $1500-3000 depending on options as per the website....

Ary

You are right about this, the bumper in the picture is made by 4+, we are trying to mass produce it right now, instead of needing your truck to do the work. It is a little labor intensive as you remove the rear portion of the frame and incorporate the bumper. I have only had 1 or 2 conversations with L.P. from 4x4 labs, he is a nice guy, and does make some pretty nice stuff. Obviously I have no affiliation, I work for Man-A-Fre, but I do know good stuff when I see it.

 

[concretejungle]

I agree, the 4+ is a VERY nice looking bumper. I am having a hard time sinking over a $1,000 into a bumper though. Just really tough decision. If i can get a really high quality front bumper (ie ARB) for $700, that kinda screws up my thought process for the rear. I dunno, might try to fab one up, but that could end up being a disaster and a loss of time and money if it comes out horrible. Jury's still out.......

 

[sleeoffroad]

You can get a rear bumper for less than a $1000, you just can't get the tire carrier

 

[concretejungle]

You can get a rear bumper for less than a $1000, you just can't get the tire carrier

Dang it Christo! That's part of the problem. I know that you and others that have been pointed out here are very nice units. Great craftsmanship, high quality components, but there is no way that there is $2,000 in parts and labor in a rear bumper with a tire carrier! I would like to have one, but for now i'm just beating the crap out of my OEM rear bumper and keep the spare in the back or up on the rack.

 

[reffug]

but for now i'm just beating the crap out of my OEM rear bumper and keep the spare in the back or up on the rack.

Maybe you havn't beat the crap out of it enough.

Or 2K worth.............................

 

[NorCalDoug]

...but there is no way that there is $2,000 in parts and labor in a rear bumper with a tire carrier! ...

They gotta keep the lights on and the dogs fed.

It's been said before...a sale without profit = a gift.

 

[FZJ80 FIREMAN]

Here is my new bumper built by Ken Hanna..I love it..Havent tried it out yet but it was tested at Moab and came back alive..I hope i get the pics to load..

 

[NorCalDoug]

Let's test it on the Rubicon next summer

 

[Rich]

...there is no way that there is $2,000 in parts and labor in a rear bumper with a tire carrier...
.

With respect to the Slee bumper I am certain that is true. The difference between parts & labor cost and the selling price is business overhead and profit. I expect profit is what lets Slee and his employees stay dry at night and have some food to eat when they wake up in the morning. And also drive around the same toys you and I do.

As fun as it may be, I not sure I would want to stake my financial survival on marketing 4x4 stuff to late model Cruiser fans. None of the offerings are perfect. I've had to fiddle with or slightly modify most of the stuff I got from Slee to fit, and compared to mass manufacturing, the prices are on the steep side. But the fact of the matter is that Slee is not a mass producer and you can't expect anyone to pursue a business absent profit.

I'm glad for the options that are available to our niche market and to date haven't seen a rear bumper or set of sliders commercially available that I would prefer over Slee's.

 

[cruiserdan]

With respect to fitment of these small production semi-custom pieces, my Slee rear bumper went on with only 2 small "personal revisions". The nuts that were "captive-welded" to the wing brackets on my bumper were of a staked locking variety (not specified by Christo but substituted by his fabricator without his knowledge) I chased them with a tap to ease fitment and I substituted my original trailer hitch bolts for the ones supplied by Christo. It all went togther very well and I feel it was well worth the 1,800 bucks he gets for it. His transfer skid plate almost installed it's self. I tinkered with the headlamp harness more than I did with the skid plate and rear bumper combined.

My Hanna Sliders were the first set that Ken shipped to a remote location and did not actually install himself. The fitment was very nice and I only needed two small shims that he had intended to include but forgot to as it was, afterall, the first set he "shipped out".

Kudos to both of these fine gentlemen who have taken a passion and converted it into stuff that those of us with less talent can get our hands on....


D-

 

[concretejungle]

Game over. You lose.

Ever try to build a high quality rear bumper? Remember, it's not all materials and labor on just the one bumper, but the design time, testing etc. Sure as dimes to donuts you take your 80 to any custom fab shop and ask them to replicate his bumper, with same high quality and the price will be more than Christos. So before you speak, make sure to take your foot out of your mouth.

Easy there junkster.........i understand where you are coming from. Say you go to walmart and need some tylenol for a head ache, do you think that the name brand tylenol really costs $8.00 to produce and research, even though it's been around for decades while the generic brands are just as good and cost $3.00?

I know about testing and design time, but look at the sliders as an example. Slee's sliders (which are very nice looking and work from what people have attested to) cost around $700. I made a set of george's sliders using a friends mig welder (and by the way it was only the 2nd time i had ever welded) and cutting tools. Went to a local scrap yard and got some metal and took my time measuring, double measuring, fitting, fitting again, then tacking. Took a little while but in the end i had a set of sliders that cost about $100 in materials. I'm not saying i can make a rear bumper comprable to slee's for $100, but i think they should be able to be purchased for cheaper.

Slee, please don't take offense to any of this. I know you need to pay your bills and put food on the table, just the ramblings of a poor boy.

 

[concretejungle]

It is obvious he has never fabricated crap in his life.

It's obvious your head is so far up your ass you can't think straight

 

[sleeoffroad]

Dang it Christo! That's part of the problem. I know that you and others that have been pointed out here are very nice units. Great craftsmanship, high quality components, but there is no way that there is $2,000 in parts and labor in a rear bumper with a tire carrier! I would like to have one, but for now i'm just beating the crap out of my OEM rear bumper and keep the spare in the back or up on the rack.

Yes, there is profit in as well Also I have posted a lot in the past, that our business model is to keep stuff on the shelf (we achieve that most of the time but not 100%). In order to do this, you have a bunch of capital sitting on the shelf, and you have to somehow fund that. That means making profit. The benifit to you is that you can call and we can typically ship same or next day. I strongly believe in out business that if you do not have it in stock, you are not going to sell it.

So, the only way to do this is to subcontract the fabrication out. So yes, it is more expensive than if I hired a welder, and somehow had all the tools (which is a lot) to make a production quality bumper. If I did that, I would soon find out that I am running a huge sheet metal shop and not a 4x4 shop. Unfortunatelly this step does introduce additional cost factor. However if we had the volume as the Jeep market, or branch out, or had a sugar daddy, we could probably do the fabrication in house and produce cheaper product, but that is not going to happen in the Land Cruiser Market.

We are always looking at reducing costs, but I can tell you with steel prices going up and up, it is difficult.

Not busting anyones chops, just stating where we come from. I do appreciate all the kind words from everyone. Re: fitment issues, we strive to be perfect in that sense, but we do miss sometimes, but we do fix it when we are aware of it.

 

[concretejungle]

I appreciate your replys Christo, not many companies will do that. I understand where you are coming from, heck, i'd do the same thing if not charge more! I really want a high quality rear bumper and i'm having a hard time investing that kind of money. I'm sure once i do (or if i do) i will see it was well worth it and i will get a lifetime of enjoyment out of it.

 

[sleeoffroad]

I made a set of george's sliders using a friends mig welder (and by the way it was only the 2nd time i had ever welded)

OK, take this toung in cheek. Firstly, buy your own welder and add the cost [EDIT] - Sorry forgot to add if you payed George?

and cutting tools.

and cutting tools

Went to a local scrap yard and got some metal

Did you book time and mileage. 32c/mile or some such number

and took my time measuring, double measuring, fitting, fitting again, then tacking.

What does your time bill out at. Oh, plus you need to go back to welding school and get certified, otherwise you would not want to sell those sliders that was your 2nd welding project. Also, did you take out workmans comp insurance and product liability? You might cut your finger, or the slider might fall off?

Took a little while but in the end i had a set of sliders that cost about $100 in materials.

Total time elapsed? Did you add the cost of the bolts/u bolts/powder coating/ sand blasting?

I'm not saying i can make a rear bumper comprable to slee's for $100, but i think they should be able to be purchased for cheaper.

Yes, in the ideal world if we had 10 times as many LC's ad we have now. I could go down to Mexico, South America or South Africa or ??. Have them made by the container full, shipped back here and sell them for $799. Believe me I have looked into it, but not sure we can get the same quality, finish and customer support.

As it is, no-one is happy with any one design. Our bumper was made without a receiver since I thought the Kaymar already covers that market. I wanted a low profile strong bumper that did not require ANY modifications to the truck and be a true bolt on deal. In fact that is the same with 99% of our products. At the time that we started selling these, very few people were prepared to take a plasma or sawzall to their truck. I think it worked out well.

In the current market, we can probably produce a receiver similar to C-Dan and tell people to cut a hole and do the modifications. Catch is, normally if one has the tools to cut the hole, they can probably just buy the piece of receiver tube and modify it the way they want it. Still giving them the satisfaction of making something for their truck.

In short, hey I started making my own stuff as well since I did not like what was out there. People liked it, I took a gamble and opened Slee Off-Road. So I had very much the same thinking as you, and has always said, there is a lot of satisfaction in making your own stuff. Be unique, do it the way you want. However you can never compare that cost to producing things to sell.

Slee, please don't take offense to any of this. I know you need to pay your bills and put food on the table, just the ramblings of a poor boy.

I don't, just sitting here having my morning coffee and thinking about Christmas Thanks for all our customers that has allowed us to grow a little bit again this year and still be able to open the doors on Jan 1st.

 

[sleeoffroad]

I appreciate your replys Christo, not many companies will do that. I understand where you are coming from, heck, i'd do the same thing if not charge more! I really want a high quality rear bumper and i'm having a hard time investing that kind of money. I'm sure once i do (or if i do) i will see it was well worth it and i will get a lifetime of enjoyment out of it.

PS, currently looking at cost saving. Getting the license plate mounted the way we do ends up costing around $65. Believe it or not. Bracket, harness, expensive Lite'n Bolts

 

[dd113]

It's obvious your head is so far up your ass you can't think straight

Yeah right


So you borrowed a mig welder hmmmm that is worth maybe $1000? Did you figure that into your cost? Where did you make them? That is called overhead. How much electricty did you use? How much gas to go pick up the materials? How much time did you take off your real job to make these? What about vehicle maintence, taxes and insurance on the vehicle you used to go to the scrap yard? Did you spend the time jiggin gout the sliders to ensure you can make 100 of them exactly the same to ensure quality and consistency? What about powdercoating? How much did you pay for the plans to make them?

You might think my head is up my ass but I have been fabbing stuff for years and know the score. It costs a lot more than you think not even counting planning and design.

If you think it should be cheaper there is quite a market out here. Tell you what: I will buy 10 swing outs from you for 80 series for $800 each of the same quality that Slee makes. Think about it.

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I for one can truely appreciate the time, effort, labor and materials that go into any of the aforementioned bumpers. I fabricated a rear tire carrier and jerry can carrier for my Jeep a while back, and although it was very functional and rugged, it was anywhere near as pretty and "finished" as these production bumpers. Even with making it myself I spent about $500 on parts and materials(had a lot of steel left over though) and spent a good 4 days making it(only had an angle grinder and a circular saw with an abrasive blade for cutting duties). After all that work, time spent designing and planning, and the money involved, I will happily pay ~2000 for a rear bumper and tire carrier. I would be buying the Kaymar unit right now at the group buy price if I weren't trying to put myself through school

Here's a pic of the bumper I made for reference:

Ary

 

[sleeoffroad]

I think concrete understands. We should not bust his chops to much

PS, Woody, why are your hats so expensive. I am sure I can emboider that logo a lot cheaper if I buy a hat at Costco and get my grandma to do the embroidery with some thread I can get cheap at the thrift store

PS, can you send me the logo in JPEG or DXF, my buddy's got a pirate copy of Photoshop and Autocad and he can print it out at work

Now go have some eggnogg (PS I also have to make some monies to pay for my engleesh spelling course)

 

[Junk]

Easy there junkster.........i understand where you are coming from. ...
...
...I made a set of george's sliders using a friends mig welder (and by the way it was only the 2nd time i had ever welded) and cutting tools. Went to a local scrap yard and got some metal and took my time measuring, double measuring, fitting, fitting again, then tacking. Took a little while but in the end i had a set of sliders that cost about $100 in materials.

Therein lies some of the difference I'm talking about. I'm not slapping you, but you are leveraging previously tried and tested George's design. You borrowed a welder you didn't own and you spent time fabbing it up. You also now have sliders that were welded by a guy that doesn't have much welding experience.

Not trying to say you don't have any skin in the game or you don't know how to weld, just don't think you are comparing apples to apples nor are you including the time, labor and equipment costs.

The nice thing about Christo's stuff (and perhaps other guys - I can only comment on those that I have actually tried) is that they also install them all the time. So they know about fitment. If something could be improved they'll likely know about it. Of course I also hope that Christo has some profit in them as if he didn't, he wouldn't be able to stick around.

Sorry about getting personal on this with you, but I think you were a little out of line with the comment you made. Just my view though, and many won't agree. Christo is a great guy though and has been on both sides of this question, so I'm sure doesn't mind a question about here or there.

I do feel I must add just because I haven't included any in the above