Intercoolers and options

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Fantom

Fantom

10 Year 15 Year
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As Jeremy suggested the option of a top mounted unit I got to thinking about it.
I've never been a fan of them because I have always viewed them as a half hearted solution to mounting an intercooler in an area where you don't have much space.
Am I wrong?
I see the following main issue with it, the heat off the engine rises up and so the intercooler requires much more cooling than the conventional setup of having it up front, unrestricted. Is this a flawed logic?
I just assumed they were made and invented for application where there was not much space and it was better than nothing.
Also, I'ev always found them to be a pain because they are usually over most of the engine and any time you need to do anything, you had to remove them.

What are benefits, and set backs?

I know that there are also ones that have coolant running through them, but once again, how is that a benefit when the coolant is hotter than ambient temp, and usually by a lot. I see that as a benefit is you are trying to heat up the air, not cool it.
 
Unless it is a factory top mount I would not have one for the reasons you cite. Front mount is the way to go subject to being able to move the rad back enough to make room and there is enough air flow if there an AC rad up front and the tubing runs are not overly bent and constricting air flow volumes. The purpose is to cool the hot compressed air which has a higher temperature than the coolant being cooled by the front air flow.
 
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Ive done a bit of reading, and it seems the top mounts give some benefit of cooling. I am leaning that way on my 60, because I don't want to go through the effort of installing a front mount since the 60 is just temporary. My 79 has a front mount. If anyone knows of a place to get a top mount cheap, let me know, I am interested.
CHeers,
Deny
 
Top mount benefits include keeping the intercooler out of mud and the fins from clogging or being easily damaged while wheeling. Many use an electric fan. Down side with the electric fan is on deep water crossings. I presume you could have an easily placed plug installed for such occasions and just block it off like you might do for tarpping off the rad to keep the rad fan from spinning water around. Water to air intercoolers are better because a liquid is much better at drawing out heat than a gas. I know that water inter-coolers seem to be the most sought after by the Patrol comp guys in Australia. I am sure John can explain it all much better.
 
Deny said:
Ive done a bit of reading, and it seems the top mounts give some benefit of cooling. I am leaning that way on my 60, because I don't want to go through the effort of installing a front mount since the 60 is just temporary. My 79 has a front mount. If anyone knows of a place to get a top mount cheap, let me know, I am interested.
CHeers,
Deny
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Trying to figure out how that old school look will be maintained with a hood scoop. :D
 
I am guessing you will need 5" to 6" above your engine - not many trucks have that kind of clearance - I certainly do not with the sloped hood.
Yes water to air is the way I would go - no question.
The upfront location is not an issue regarding mud - I rarely get mud in my AC rad and I wheel about 40-45 days a year.
 
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Glenn-BJ74 said:
I am guessing you will need 5" to 6" above your engine - not many trucks have that kind of clearance - I certainly do not with the sloped hood.
Yes water to air is the way I would go - no question.
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The ones I have seen are usually part of a custom built intake manifold with the only external part being the cooling fan and cooler, the hose and electric water pump. The intake manifold on the TD4.2 is not very efficient, so a custom built intake/cooler manifold also can take care of air flow design problems. I like what Oldmav (Peter) a ship builder did with his intake here. There is very little boost pressure loss in this type of set-up. Note, he went with a very large intercooler rad in front of his rad with twin electric fans instead of a top mount.

Mat is good at fabbing. He should be able to pull something like this off with all the spare time he has.
 
The water to air intercooler run on their own coolant, rad, fan and pump. Not the trucks hot engine coolant. I was thinking of that route for a top mount without a hood scoop, but finding space for all those items would be a PIA. Some of the guys made sense, if I just ran a air to air since the extra ponies would be better used at speed, than at slow trail cruising. My way of thinking of going top mount is I don't want to cover up the rad with more coolers, since a third of it is covered already with a tranny cooler. More direct flow to the intake and not having to snake a pipe around to the front and back to the intake.
 
An independent cooling systems for just the air makes more sense, but that is a LOT more stuff that you need to find room for. A separate radiator, a container/overflow canister, a pump, possibly more fans, then you need another rad cap or some kind of pressure set venting. How is that a space saving solution?
That requires even more stuff and puts an even bigger demand on electrical systems (if you get more fans, and a pump), and adds more things that could fail.
Going with the design mentality that Toyota originally used when they came up with the 3B and 2H - K.I.S.S. All mechanical, all simple.
Looks like a high flow, with large fins to allow good air flow for the engine rad, regular intercooler is my solution for this and the project truck.
 
ATA is easy. I have never needed more power for our local slow wheeling. Only highway where airflow is no problem. Now if you want to go mud bogging, have 'relations' with your first cousin or buy a PooTroll, I understand that your needs may differ...
 
If you do not have room for a front mounted Air to Air a top mount Air to Air with a good scoop that seals to the cooler is the next simplest intercooler set-up. I was all for water air till I realized that most diesel engines are always running under boost. That will heat soak a WTA cooler system fast if you are limited on the water volume you have. When I was planing a WTA for my Isuzu swap I found to keep it cool I would have needed a lot of water and combining that with the added complexity and cost I decided to move my rad back and put the largest air to air I could fit in the front. I'm not worried about restricting air flow to the rad I ran a Supra with a 4" thick intercooler in front of 3 oil coolers and then the rad and never had an issue keeping that engine cool at 600hp.

For simplicity in a engine bay with limited room I would go top mount Air to air, it will not be as efficient as a front mount but it will have much shorter plumbing. It will be much better than having nothing and if the mounting is built correctly they should take no more than 2min to remove. Its also much simpler than a proper water to air system, no pumps, hoses, reservoirs or heat exchangers to worry about/fail.
 
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Good suggestions and ideas, I pretty much figured that the water/air cooler was going to be too much work for little gain, especially in vehicles like ours. The way we use our trucks we don't need to run anything other than air/air systems (in most cases).
As for mounting location, that will be determined once the engine is in place and working. Sicne this truck has a body lift it opens up a couple options.
Thanks for the info guys!
 
It is precisely in vehicles like ours where the water to air coolers are suppose to shine: low air flow but high power demands, such as climbing in low range. No doubt they are more costly and can be a tad more complicated. But I think you are going to have to have a big fan and a big intercooler to get the air cooling you might want.

But with 2 NA diesels, I am the wrong John to be giving you advice. :rolleyes: It is just what I have seen comp trucks using. There must be a reason for it.

If you are not planning on turning up the fuel and running a higher boost, then there probably is no reason for any inter-cooler. At least that is what most people seem to do when they add one to their turbo system.
 
canucksafari said:
It is precisely in vehicles like ours where the water to air coolers are suppose to shine: low air flow but high power demands, such as climbing in low range. No doubt they are more costly and can be a tad more complicated. But I think you are going to have to have a big fan and a big intercooler to get the air cooling you might want.

But with 2 NA diesels, I am the wrong John to be giving you advice. :rolleyes: It is just what I have seen comp trucks using. There must be a reason for it.

If you are not planning on turning up the fuel and running a higher boost, then there probably is no reason for any inter-cooler. At least that is what most people seem to do when they add one to their turbo system.
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The heat exchangers for WTA also usually need fans. The systems are much more complicated as well as costly. I had my budget WTA priced out at over $600 by the time I had a WTA cooler, heat exchanger (24x12x1 size) Bosch pump, hoses and fittings as well as wiring (with temp switch or on all the time). With a air to air there is only one component and that's the core. A little bit of pipe work and a couple couplers and you are on the road with zero maintenance needed unless you stuff it with mud in which case you would be cleaning out radiators one way or another WTA or ATA.

In a comp truck I can see the benefit of WTA since they are running wide open for a few min at a time and have the room for large water tanks to prevent heat soak. For truck used daily on the road or on long distance trips where you may encounter a road where you are at full load for 20-30min at a time I think the WTA would have a hard time keeping up. The Air to Air has an unlimited supply of ambient temperature air to keep it cool.

I think even if Mat keeps it stock (fuel and boost) a intercooler is still a good investment. There will still be a benefit of more power (cooler air) and lower EGT's (again cooler air). But the system needs to stay as dead nuts simple as possible, last thing I'm sure Mat wants is the be chasing down a Ford Cobra (Bosch) WTA pump in the bush. I think the main reason Mat is going diesel in this truck is as always simplicity and reliability.

Both Front mounted ATA, Top Mounted ATA and WTA have there places but they need to be selected based on the needs of the application.

WTA is very good on turbo drag cars and pulling stuck because they run a full load for a mater of seconds so there is no time for the ice water they run the get warm.

My opinion (we all have one mine usually smells worse than others) is in a 4x4 that is used off road and in remote places keep it simple.
 
canucksafari said:
Trying to figure out how that old school look will be maintained with a hood scoop. :D
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Easy, build it out of plywood. :hillbilly:

No body has suggestions for where to get a cheap top mount ata intercooler?

Cheers,
 
Deny said:
Easy, build it out of plywood. :hillbilly:

No body has suggestions for where to get a cheap top mount ata intercooler?

Cheers,
Click to expand...

I'd look for someone wrecking a Mistsubish Pajero or Delica. They probably are not an exact match, but they should work for some extra cooling. You might even be able to chop out the hood scoop from it. The 91s an newer came with a and intercooled 2.5L. I think the Isuzu Bighorns also had a top mount intercooler too.
 
Or he go the easy route and like i talked about in his swap thread and search "Ford SVO Mustang intercooler" and grab one of those. They are cheap $50 or less bar and plate core and inlets and outlets that are easy to work with. Get one of the rubber hood seals for another $10-20 and some kind of decent scoop done.

I found 6 on eBay all look to be in decent shape and took 30sec. Nice thing with them is they are not hard to get at all cheap and easy.
 
Wheelingnoob said:
Or he go the easy route and like i talked about in his swap thread and search "Ford SVO Mustang intercooler" and grab one of those. They are cheap $50 or less bar and plate core and inlets and outlets that are easy to work with. Get one of the rubber hood seals for another $10-20 and some kind of decent scoop done.

I found 6 on eBay all look to be in decent shape and took 30sec. Nice thing with them is they are not hard to get at all cheap and easy.
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That is cheap but I didn't find any at that price on ebay. Are they big enough to be effective?
 
Matt - did you look into chemical intecooling with -40° washer fluid. water/ethanol mix acts to cool the air and adds expansion energy as water increases in volume from liquid to steam by a factor of 1700/1.
More time well wasted into that one :flipoff2:
 
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