Idle problem and FSM question?

[Borick]

Pic

It's just the corner of the insulator that's missing. Was thinking I could maybe get by without replacing it. Thoughts?

It's the same corner as the stripped stud, and - as you can see - only the edge outboard of the stud hole. Pic below.

What exactly is the insulator? Is it just that little gasket deal, or is it the entire metal heat-shield looking thing (with the red arrow pointing at it) AND the little gasket deal? (sorry about the non-tech terminology.) Trying to figure out what I get for $126.

The stud is turning with the nut, so its stripped out in the manifold. Would be great if you have a thread handy about this. I searched a little but didn't find one - will keep looking.

2mbb - swamp says you might have some s*** close at hand. Well... do ya? Would be much obliged....

Yeah, three pronged thingy here I come. Have to go buy a 22mm socket before tackling that dude.

 

[swamp60]

this is from spector off road's website

part 2 is the insulator it is the black "batwing piece". The wings are heat insulators i guess. see the white/tan paper gasket bonded to the insulator, there is one on the bottom as well.

what is broken on yours is part 90, which is an unnecessary gasket (which is why Mr T dont make it or sell it)....unless The PO determined the insulator gasket was bad, or did not know better and installed the black gasket. Was there a black gasket between the manifold and the insulator, which would be part 91 (which is also not-factory)?

Is the top and bottom surface of your insulator (sans parts 90 & 91), hard and glazed?. If not it may still have the "bonded" paper gasketss in semi-good shape. if they are hard and glazed, then it is toast. You can try to prep the surface and try to make some thin paper gaskets, or buy them from spector, but if the insulator surface is not flat it is nearly impossible get a good seal. It can be done, but in my experience, its best to just pony up for the new insulator.

That is totally up to you.

Was the stud already broken off or did that happen when you were trying to tighten the nut, or remove it after you took the carb and insulator off?

swamp60

 

[2mbb]

you seem to just have a torn gasket. The insulator is the phenolic block mated to the metal heat shield with the vacuum port. The insulator comes from the factory with gasket surfaces bonded to both sides of the phenolic block. The "extra" gasket you have probably came from a carb rebuild kit. You may not need it.

To see what is stripped (the stud or the manifold) you need to remove the insulator so you can see the threaded hole in the intake manifold. You might be able just to re-tap the hole and insert a new stud, or of the hole threads are stripped, then you will need to add a helicoil, or something similar.

You can purchase helicoils (aka thread repair kits from hardware or autoparts stores. In the kit you generally get several repair inserts, a special tap, and a tool for installing the inserts. You drill out the hole and retap to allow installation of a metal coil that has the inside thread of the original hole. It's not hard to do. In this case you would want to make sure that no metal filings get left inside the intake manifold.

I'm not very good with book marks. But I do use the search function to find threads (try it, it's easy). Here's a recent thread where a similar problem is discussed: https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/420057-two-buck-truck-carb-rebuild.html

I'm also a little concerned that the port on the insulator is capped. Does this mean it is not connected to the EVAP VSV?

 

[swamp60]

on second glance it looks like BOTH parts 91 and 90 were between the insulator and carb... or was that just how you set up the picture?....


swamp60

 

[Borick]

As usual, thanks for the helpful hints and guidance you guys. It's a lot more comfortable doing this with the benefit of your experience backing me up.

OK, got it. Thanks for the pic, swamp. The top and bottom do look hard and glazed (see below), and I don't want to do this again so am going to get the new insulator. Assume it's the same part whether from SOR or Toyota. If not, is it better to go through CruiserDan for the OEM part?

Here are some pics of the top and bottom of the insulator, and the gaskets that were taken off:

Top of insulator:

Bottom of insulator:

Swamp - good eye on the gasket. Turns out there was only one gasket on each side of the insulator, but it looks like part 91 was used on both sides. Insulator and gaskets taken off vehicle:

RE: the stud. It was already stripped when I went to tighten it. And it looks to be stripped in the manifold (pic below). It also looks like the stud to the left of the stripped stud may have been stripped in the past and helicoiled.

Do I really NOT need the gaskets? Noticed that SOR sells them both, but have read on threads here that they're not needed. FJ40Jim says you don't, and I hear he is THE MAN for carbs.

Plan right now is to:
- Order new insulator, ignore plenum and base gaskets
- Helicoil manifold and re-insert stud
- Bolt it back together

On the 3-pronged thingy: it was easy to get to without the insulator in place. It felt a little loose, but rather than just snug it down I took it off and cleaned off what looked like plumbers thread tape. Plan was to squirt some high-temp RTV on it and re-install. If you know of anything special about that thing let me know.

Thanks again!

 

[Borick]

2mbb - good catch on the plugged port on the insulator. I had noticed it but never tracked it down. Turns out the connector on the EVAP VCV is broken off, which is probably why it's capped. (Bought the rig just this past June and finding little things like this all the time.)

I'll add the VCV to my list of things to get.
Any idea how the missing connection might affect how the engine runs?

On a completely different note: noticed you own a '65 Sunbeam Tiger. My Dad is the original owner of a white '65 Tiger. Mostly original but modded for racing (still streetable). They are awesome rides.

 

[swamp60]

Do I really NOT need the gaskets? Yes, you do NOT need the gaskets. They are part of the new insulator

FJ40Jim says you don't, and I hear he is THE MAN for carbs. you heard right.

Plan right now is to:
- Order new insulator, ignore plenum and base gaskets
- Helicoil manifold and re-insert stud
- Bolt it back together
This sounds like a good plan to me.

Assume it's the same part whether from SOR or Toyota. If not, is it better to go through CruiserDan for the OEM part?

SOR will charge you a box fee, and a shipping fee (pretty sure it is OEM, but not certain)

You should get a discount by ordering from CruiserDan, but you will have to pay shipping...so i don't know what the resulting total/savings will be.

You should call your local toyota dealership, and they will order the part, have it in a day or two, and you don't pay shipping.

Compare all three and choose the least expensive option.

On the 3-pronged thingy: it was easy to get to without the insulator in place. It felt a little loose, but rather than just snug it down I took it off and cleaned off what looked like plumbers thread tape. Plan was to squirt some high-temp RTV on it and re-install. If you know of anything special about that thing let me know.

I would try snugging it in w/o RTV first. If it is still leaky, sparingly apply the high-temp RTV. if it is still leaky after that, get a new one

Any idea how the missing connection might affect how the engine runs?

If the cap on the intake tube is air tight, it should not affect engine operation (at least not drasticly), if it is not air tight, it is a vac leak. That port provides vac to the charcoal cannister that stores fuel vapors, so not having it conected means that you are not purging the cannister of hydrocarbon vapors which could lead to bad things... Have you inspected the condition of the cannister?

swamp60

 

[Borick]

Sound advice. Already ordered the helicoil kit online, and will get on the horn Monday morning and get the rest taken care of.

Given what you're saying about impact on engine operation, I'll check the canister (I haven't previously) and be sure the cap on the intake tube is air tight as you suggest. Don't think I'll replace the VCV, though (they're $40+), since I'd like to desmog fairly soon after getting to understand how this whole thing works a little better.

BTW, I'm a white 1986 FJ60 too. Thanks, man. Will report back to this thread after parts have arrived and a bit o' progress made!

 

[swamp60]

Well... technically the evap systen is not part of smog....and something that you should try to keep functional even with a desmog. it stores evaporated fuel from the tank, and also the carb when the engine is off. Then sucks it into the intake to be combusted, instead of being vented to the atmosphere. cause that bad mmm'k.

Stepping
off
soapbox

the way it is now, it is probably venting to the atmosphere (which is under your hood really) , or if your cannister is not working properly it could be building up pressher. Either way it could one day go BOOM and we dont want that to happen.

It's easy to rehab. Just read up about the system ans you will see it it something you need to keep.

Also- you are very welcome.

swamp60

 

[Borick]

Well, now I'm learning something about how it all works in prep for my desmog! I will check more closely into the EVAP system, but you make a good case for keeping it from up on that soapbox. Definitely don't need anything going blooey on me, and it does sound useful.

I have noticed a slight smell of fuel under the hood in the past, and also while working on vac lines and stuff recently, so maybe that was due to the non-working EVAP system.

 

[swamp60]

Quite possible inop EVAP casuing the gas smell as you describe it. it is easy to restore it to full function, and it is a benefit to cruiser operation.

If you take the time to really read and understand the emissions manual, it makes the desmog go much smoother...alot of people wind up taking out things that they dont't need to...

the "My Desmog Thread" has gotten really big and there is a lot of chatter in it that goes off on different tangents, but there are a lot of great discussions and pics in there.

keep us posted.

swamp60

 

[Borick]

Update - SUCCESS!

Work done since my last post:

1. Replaced helicoil: one of the carb studs had already been helicoiled (can be seen in the picture posted above). The helicoil was actually raised above the intake mating surface - not sure if it was always this way or if it backed out when I disassembled, but in either case the new insulator wouldn't seal with things in this condition. I was able get the old coil out and insert a new one properly.

2. Replaced stripped stud: the "stripped" stud still had some good threads at the bottom. Instead of using a regular stud with a helicoil I was able to just replace the stud without using a helicoil. I bought a stud that was fully threaded (no unthreaded portion in the middle) and slightly longer, and then inserted it into the existing threads. The new stud went into the hole a bit further and tightened up nicely with thread locker. The new stud is stainless steel, not a hardened carb stud, so hopefully this won't be a problem.

3. Installed new insulator: installed the new insulator, smeared the bonded gaskets with a little 90 weight oil as recommended.

4. Re-installed carb: bolted down the carb and was able to snug everything down nicely.

5. Replaced EVAP VCV: replaced the broken VCV with one from SOR and hooked up the missing vacuum line.

Re-attached all the vacuum lines, and snugged up the 3-pronged thingy.

Result: runs better than it ever has. Idled immediately (with choke). No RPM change when spraying things with carb cleaner. When warm and unchoked adjusted idle down to ~700 and idles nice and smooth. Fast idle is a little low (~1300) so I still need to adjust that.

It runs great! No more surging or idle issues, plenty of power (for a 2F), and smooth. I sure hope it lasts! So, I'm counting this as a HUGE success.

Thanks swamp60 and 2mbb for everything - your suggestions and help made this go quickly. I really REALLY appreciate it.

Swamp - I've been reading the "My desmog thread" as suggested. Lots of good info in there I'm planning to take that on sometime in the next couple of months after some more research and planning.

 

[swamp60]

Awsome man. You are more than welcome.

Ahh the 2F at idle at 700 is such a soothing sound...

Good work, now prepare your Brain for the desmog. if you plan it out in advance is much mo betta,but ask questions whenyou dont get something, what it is /does etc...

Cheers



swamp60

 

[Borick]

Yep, I will DEFINITELY do the question thing - they're pretty much guaranteed to come up. That "My Desmog thread" is an interested read. Bloody long, though.