HJ60 2H glow plugs....can someone unravel the mystery? (2 Viewers)

Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
Greetings all,

I know this has been done to death on the forum but here goes.

I have an 84 Aussie new HJ60 with a 2H motor. Its always been a bit of a pig to start if you don't catch it first go.

Its got the super glow system on it. When starting, I flick on the key and the glow light goes out after about 2 seconds then I have to wait about another 30 secs till the 2nd relay drops out. The busbar is measuring 11 - 10.5V until the 2nd relay drops out. It usually fires after a couple of turns but if it doesn't it can be a nightmare.

The mornings are getting colder here now and some days it only just starts. Even with a brand new battery.

Anyway, I've done all the relay tests/continuity tests in the FSM and everything seems fine. However, the current glow plugs are Bosch GPT 228 and according my information these are 24V plugs. It looks like I should be running GPT 214 (6V) but if my busbar voltage is staying at 10.5V (ish) for 30 secs then I'm guessing these won't last very long.

The bosch manual is a bit of a mess anyway, they list the GPT 228 as both a 12V and 24V plug etc etc.

Can anybody give me a simple explanation as to which plugs I should be using? I have spent hours on here trying to figure it out but I just seem to be confusing myself even more!!!

Thank you and apologies if this is really simple and I can't figure it out!!
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
8,871
Location
New Zealand
Greetings all,

I know this has been done to death on the forum but here goes.

I have an 84 Aussie new HJ60 with a 2H motor. Its always been a bit of a pig to start if you don't catch it first go.

Its got the super glow system on it. When starting, I flick on the key and the glow light goes out after about 2 seconds then I have to wait about another 30 secs till the 2nd relay drops out. The busbar is measuring 11 - 10.5V until the 2nd relay drops out. It usually fires after a couple of turns but if it doesn't it can be a nightmare.

The mornings are getting colder here now and some days it only just starts. Even with a brand new battery.

Anyway, I've done all the relay tests/continuity tests in the FSM and everything seems fine. However, the current glow plugs are Bosch GPT 228 and according my information these are 24V plugs. It looks like I should be running GPT 214 (6V) but if my busbar voltage is staying at 10.5V (ish) for 30 secs then I'm guessing these won't last very long.

The bosch manual is a bit of a mess anyway, they list the GPT 228 as both a 12V and 24V plug etc etc.

Can anybody give me a simple explanation as to which plugs I should be using? I have spent hours on here trying to figure it out but I just seem to be confusing myself even more!!!

Thank you and apologies if this is really simple and I can't figure it out!!

Hi there and welcome to ih8mud.

If your HJ60 has only got one battery then it's definitely a 12V cruiser rather than a 24V cruiser.

So if it is superglow it should be running the 12V cruiser superglow plugs which are "nominal 6V plugs" as you rightly say.

I think the reason you're measuring 10.5V at your busbar is because the installation of the wrong plugs is affecting your measurement.

In other words, with the correct 6V plugs in there, I believe you won't get a reading anywhere near thay high because they will have significantly lower resistance (and so the voltage drop across them will be significantly less).

Have you already noticed this thread here:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...gs-should-i-running-b-2b-3b-h-2h-diesels.html

If you have you'll see that it already mentions how bad the Bosch Catalogue data is.

:beer:
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
521
Location
NSW
I actually asked that very question, here's Bosch's reply:

"Dear Bosch,

This is about glow plugs.

Based on the Bosch website file, Bosch_Glow_Plug_Web_Ready.pdf, I am a bit confused about the glow plugs for a Toyota Landcruiser HJ60.

There it says:
HJ60 08.80-08.87 24V GPT-217
HJ60 10.82-08-87 12V GPT-228
HJ60 08.87-08.88 12V GPT-217
09.88-01.90 24V 0 250 202 097

I have 2 questions about the above list:

1.
So, basically Bosch has got covered per voltage system (12V vs 24V):
12V 10.82-08.88
24V 08.80-01.90

But, what about pre 1982 12 volts? There appears to be a gap.

2.
I have a 1985 HJ60 12V. According to the Bosch list, I would need GPT-228.
But, when I look up GPT-228 on that same list in the Dimensions section:
"GPT-228 23.0" 23 Volts? On a 12V system? That makes no sense.

I think GPT-228 is NOT the correct glow plug for the HJ60 10.82-08-87 12V.
It should be: GPT-214. "GPT-214 6.0" according to the Dimensions section, is a 6 volt plug, and the correct one for the HJ60 10.82-08-87 12V. That system use a super glow system that deliveres 6 volts for a few seconds, and then an afterglow at 3 volts for a duration dependent on the coolant temperature.

Kind regards,

Vincent

We would like to advise:
Hi Vincent,

thank you for your enquiry.

1. Your are right, there is a gap. We do not cover the vehicle pre 1982
2. You are also right here, the correct glow plug would be GPT-217 which can be used for 12V and 24V systems, depending on the glow unit. If the car runs on the 6V system the correct glow plug would be GPT-214."

So, you are correct, it should be GPT-214.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
I have read the previous post about the bosch catalogue and thats what made me think that I might have the wrong plugs in to start with!!

Thanks for the help with this one guys, I'll definitely put in some of the 6V plugs before winter arrives here.

I'd also like to add what a great resource this forum is, very helpful.

Cheers
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
Bit of a follow up on this subject.

I eventually got around to installing a set of GPT 214 glow plugs into this truck. Unfortunately its not the end of the problem!

With the new plugs, when I glow to start I'm getting a lot of heat in the sensor strip that connects to the busbar along the plugs. Where they connect together and are mounted on the intake manifold it is getting almost red hot during the glow cycle. When I had the previous GPT 228 (24V) plugs I didn't have this problem at all.

Also, with the new plugs they seem to be draining all the cranking power from the battery. It will barely turn the motor over, (even with a full charge on battery).

On the plus side, the glow plugs are getting hot now and they are measuring 7 volts across the plugs when heating.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I was hoping that when I got the new plugs it would be the end of the starting problem but its got worse!
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
968
Location
Vancouver BC
I'm going to throw a random bit of info for what it's worth.

I have a 24 volt truck with superglow.
Bus bar gives a short burst (7-8 sec) of 20 volts which then drops to 10 volts for 15 to 20 sec.

The voltage of the plugs is 14V. (NGK 197) or Nippon denso 067100-1460


So proportionally speaking - is there a bosch plug rated at 7 or 8 volts? that might be a better fit if your 6volt plugs are burning up.


Warning- all my 24v truck's numbers are correct - though my hypothesis for how that applies to your 12v truck is just a hypothesis...
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
I'm 99% certain I have the right glow plugs installed. They are 6V plugs and they get a burst of around 7 volts for a few seconds and then it drops until the control unit senses the engine is running.

Its the good old super glow system.

I know the plugs are getting hot enough because when I pulled one out after a glow cycle it was still to hot to touch.

I starting to suspect that I have a bad short circuit or earth somewhere now.

The sensor strip that goes from the second voltage resistor onto the glow plug busbar is still getting very hot (melting plastic smell) and if I crank the starter for any length of time the earth leads are getting semi hot.

I'm thinking now that the starter is toast and causing a big voltage drop that sucks all the battery power?

I'm open to any suggestions though!!
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
8,871
Location
New Zealand
...With the new plugs, when I glow to start I'm getting a lot of heat in the sensor strip that connects to the busbar along the plugs. Where they connect together and are mounted on the intake manifold it is getting almost red hot during the glow cycle. When I had the previous GPT 228 (24V) plugs I didn't have this problem at all....

I don't have a superglow system so I can't say whether or not this is normal..

But I suspect it may be normal..

...Also, with the new plugs they seem to be draining all the cranking power from the battery. It will barely turn the motor over, (even with a full charge on battery).
....

...I starting to suspect that I have a bad short circuit or earth somewhere now.

... and if I crank the starter for any length of time the earth leads are getting semi hot.

I'm thinking now that the starter is toast and causing a big voltage drop that sucks all the battery power?

I'm open to any suggestions though!!

If your starter is unable to turn over your engine properly then I suspect you may have a problem with getting the juice to it.

  • How old is your battery? (Of course it needs to be in top condition to start a diesel on a cold morning.)
  • Is your battery rated big enough (in CCA) because most battery retailers are likely to advise you buy too small (if my experience is anything to go by)?
  • Are your battery terminal connections clean/sound?
  • etc
I suspect your starter leads are getting warm not from the magnitude of the current but instead from the "cranking duration". In other words .... MORE current is actually needed to turn your engine over faster (because it's presently turning over too slowly to reliably fire up).


:beer:
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
I don't have a superglow system so I can't say whether or not this is normal..

But I suspect it may be normal..





If your starter is unable to turn over your engine properly then I suspect you may have a problem with getting the juice to it.

  • How old is your battery? (Of course it needs to be in top condition to start a diesel on a cold morning.)
  • Is your battery rated big enough (in CCA) because most battery retailers are likely to advise you buy too small (if my experience is anything to go by)?
  • Are your battery terminal connections clean/sound?
  • etc
I suspect your starter leads are getting warm not from the magnitude of the current but instead from the "cranking duration". In other words .... MORE current is actually needed to turn your engine over faster (because it's presently turning over too slowly to reliably fire up).


:beer:

The battery is a couple of months old and its been kept fully charged with my battery charger.

Its 850CCA so should be more than enough juice.

The engine is turning over slowly from the first instant the key is turned to that position. If I crank it for a few seconds it becomes so slow that it will never start even with hot plugs.

I put jumper leads onto the battery today and it seemed to make a difference as the truck started like it should.

Could it be possible that I have a short in the starter circuit somewhere that is not allowing full juice to the starter? The jumper leads gave it just enough extra to make a difference? Or is the starter toast?

I've spent a lot of time around diesel engines but this is driving me nuts. I fixed the glow problem but don't feel like I've made any progress!!
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Denmark
How is the voltage at the battery post during the glow cycle?
If the voltage drops too much the current will rise to make the starter spin, causing it to overheat.

As I see it there are different plugs for th 2H engine if for the Australien market than if for rest of the world. Even in 12V version.
Thankfully Denmark got the cold climate version, witch are 24V.

You could try to look up your VIN at the Toyota EPC, just to make sure you got the rigth plugs.

(or send you VIN to me, then I will look it up)

Also, if you could borrow a Clamp-On ampmeter it would help you to check what kind of current you are drawing trough the plugs.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
How is the voltage at the battery post during the glow cycle?
If the voltage drops too much the current will rise to make the starter spin, causing it to overheat.

As I see it there are different plugs for th 2H engine if for the Australien market than if for rest of the world. Even in 12V version.
Thankfully Denmark got the cold climate version, witch are 24V.

You could try to look up your VIN at the Toyota EPC, just to make sure you got the rigth plugs.

(or send you VIN to me, then I will look it up)

Also, if you could borrow a Clamp-On ampmeter it would help you to check what kind of current you are drawing trough the plugs.

According to the dashboard voltmeter, during the glow cycle it is dropping down between 8 and 10V. When the glow cycle finishes it jumps back up to nearly 12V. I realise that its not the most accurate instrument. It seems to me to be drawing a lot of juice during the glow cycle which won't help the starter either.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
I learned a few things tonight:

Firstly, even though it appears that my truck has the super glow system it eats 6V glow plugs. they haven't even done 10 glow cycles and they are toast. No continuity and they don't heat up even with 12V directly applied. I don't like this, it is expensive.

Secondly, my glow system behaves much more like a fixed delay system (even though it looks like superglow).

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure my starter is on its last legs as the cranking speed is pathetic.

Fourthly, If I put 10.5V plugs in will it start with the current system. The GPT 228 (24V) plugs in now do get red hot at the end of the glow cycle but it still won't start.

Should I just put a wilson switch and a dirty great cable to the busbar and count in my head then hit it and go?

I have had better evenings working on vehicles.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
8,871
Location
New Zealand
Damn.

Searching through Toyota information confirms to me that your cruiser (a 1984 Australian HJ60) should indeed be superglow and running 6V plugs.

However I believe repeat-glowing will blow superglow plugs. (Because during the first stage they are deliberately fed with excessive voltage. That is, they are fed with voltage over and above their 6V rating which they can only withstand for short periods. In other words I believe they always need a decent cool-down period between cycles.

So this means that when an owner of a superglow cruiser has cranking problems (as you do), I think they put their glowplugs at risk if they keep up their starting attempts. (Because the key will re-initiate the glow cycle at each cranking attempt.)

How is the voltage at the battery post during the glow cycle?
If the voltage drops too much the current will rise to make the starter spin, causing it to overheat......

The truth is that it is higher voltage that will cause higher current (and not lower voltage). So, as I said before, the overheating is caused by the "duration" of the current rather than it's magnitude.

And if you buy plugs on the Internet from Oz .... they aren't expensive compared to the overall cost of running/maintaining an old diesel cruiser. (Just compare it to your Road-UserCharges or AnnualLicencingFee.) So this is really no biggie.

And the most likely trouble with your starter is just burned-up contact points that are limiting the current-flow through it:
StarterSolenoidRepairKit.jpg

So I recommend another set of plugs, pulling your starter and inspecting your starter solenoid contacts..


:beer:

StarterSolenoidRepairKit.jpg
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
10
Location
Twizel New Zealand
****.

Searching through Toyota information confirms to me that your cruiser (a 1984 Australian HJ60) should indeed be superglow and running 6V plugs.

However I believe repeat-glowing will blow superglow plugs. (Because during the first stage they are deliberately fed with excessive voltage. That is, they are fed with voltage over and above their 6V rating which they can only withstand for short periods. In other words I believe they always need a decent cool-down period between cycles.

So this means that when an owner of a superglow cruiser has cranking problems (as you do), I think they put their glowplugs at risk if they keep up their starting attempts. (Because the key will re-initiate the glow cycle at each cranking attempt.) I suspect you may be right with this and I did think about this, just too late! Still doesn't explain why the sensing resistor was getting so hot during the glow cycle.



The truth is that it is higher voltage that will cause higher current (and not lower voltage). So, as I said before, the overheating is caused by the "duration" of the current rather than it's magnitude.

And if you buy plugs on the Internet from Oz .... they aren't expensive compared to the overall cost of running/maintaining an old diesel cruiser. (Just compare it to your Road-UserCharges or AnnualLicencingFee.) So this is really no biggie. They cost $130 and lasted 5 mins, thats a big enough deal for me.

And the most likely trouble with your starter is just burned-up contact points that are limiting the current-flow through it:
View attachment 759839

So I recommend another set of plugs, pulling your starter and inspecting your starter solenoid contacts..

I intend to pull the starter off this afternoon and have a bit of a look. Any recommendations about where to get a rebuild kit from?

Does this mean that super glow trucks are prone to eating plugs in general. The vehicle would have to fire on the first crank every time otherwise the only option is to glow again and try to start?


:beer:

Was Super Glow a good idea at the time but 30 odd years later its too complicated and prone to becoming a nightmare with age?
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
8,871
Location
New Zealand
Was Super Glow a good idea at the time but 30 odd years later its too complicated and prone to becoming a nightmare with age?

You've given me a challenge for replying ... but never mind ... I'm adaptable ..:lol:

Reply.jpg

:cheers:

Ooops. But it's too time-consuming now to fix my spelling mistakes...

In the first reply "it" should be "in" etc etc.

Reply.jpg
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
968
Location
Vancouver BC
Hey Twizel,

Sorry you're having such a bad time. For what it's worth, my truck just got new plugs after 7 years of being a Canadian daily driver. Not sure how old the plugs were before that. It starts up nicely and the superglow has been dead solid for the entire time I've had the truck. So I don't think it's an obsolete system at all - I think those who put in Wilson Switches are those who don't want to troubleshoot the system and replace expensive relays when a switch and a new wire will suffice.

Not a dis, I would probably be one of them if my system failed, but so far it's been trouble free... knock on wood...
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Messages
254
Location
Denmark
Damn.




The truth is that it is higher voltage that will cause higher current (and not lower voltage). So, as I said before, the overheating is caused by the "duration" of the current rather than it's magnitude.

:beer:

That is correct in every aspect except DC motors.
When you ask a DC motor to deliver enough force to turn over a diesel engine but don't give it enough voltage it will tend to draw higher corrent to still being able to deliver the reguested force, forcing it to overheat and eventually fail.
This is why running a 12V winch at 24V works ;)

That being said I agree that the contact points in the starter solonoid proberly are shot.

But first thing to buy before more spareparts should be a god voltmeter and possible a clam-on amp meter to see whats going on.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
228
Location
West Coast of Florida
I can certainly appreciate the efforts of someone trying to keep Superglow running, but if you decide to go the Wilson route, I had very good luck with the 10.5 volt version Toyota Part # 19850-68010. 10 seconds allows a quick first crank start, but I can't speak for what it takes in sub-freezing conditions.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom