HJ brake issues (at my wits end)

[lshobie]

Are the new shoes OEM or aftermarket? if they are aftermarket they might not be as thick - that coupled with a out of spec drum might give you problems.

Is your e-brake tight? how many clicks does it click until it it as far as it can go?

I'd just replace the rear drums as you have already done everything else. Are the front rotors OEM? Make sure you replace the drums with OEM as well.

Not sure if anyone mentioned it - and you probably already know, but, if the brakes are spongy and ineffective on the first depress then get better as you pump them then you have air in the system. Although you have said you have bled them numerous times so there should be a problem.

If you use the e-brake while depressing the brake pedal does the braking get better?

Interesting.

 

[dieselDaryl]

Are the new shoes OEM or aftermarket? if they are aftermarket they might not be as thick - that coupled with a out of spec drum might give you problems.

Is your e-brake tight? how many clicks does it click until it it as far as it can go?

I'd just replace the rear drums as you have already done everything else. Are the front rotors OEM? Make sure you replace the drums with OEM as well.

Not sure if anyone mentioned it - and you probably already know, but, if the brakes are spongy and ineffective on the first depress then get better as you pump them then you have air in the system. Although you have said you have bled them numerous times so there should be a problem.

If you use the e-brake while depressing the brake pedal does the braking get better?

Interesting.

The pads were aftermarket but of good quality and had more meat on them than the factory pads which were at about 75%. Front rotors are not OEM but the problem was there before I replaced them. I will try the used drums I have on hand and then I will go with new ones if that fails..

E-brake is good, probably 4 or 5 clicks but I will maybe try tightening it up a bit.. And I'll try pumping the pedal as others have suggested.

Will update you tomorrow after the new brakeline and drums..

Thanks for the suggestions everyone..

Daryl

 

[roscoFJ73]

Will update you tomorrow after the new brakeline and drums..

Thanks for the suggestions everyone..

Daryl

Make sure the radii are the same between brake shoe and brake drum
Check the old ones too.
If the shoes are thick enough they can be ground on a radial grinder to match the drums

 

[lshobie]

Rosco has a great point, if the shoes arent the same shape as the drum then that is part of your problem - make sure they are.

 

[dieselDaryl]

Rosco has a great point, if the shoes arent the same shape as the drum then that is part of your problem - make sure they are.

For sure. I've got a spare set from another truck that I'm thinking I'll compare and throw on. I've got my new rear brake line in hand and am going to installl it, the new shoes and drums tonight. Will update you all tomorrow.

By the way, double (and triple) pumping made no difference in the sponginess..

Daryl

 

[jzmq]

What about the diaphram in the brake booster? If there is a hole in it, it never creates a proper vaccum?

 

[Garry]

I feel your pain, man. Back in the old days I used to muck around with VW offroaders. One time I was bleeding the brakes on a buggy and couldn't get rid of the spongy pedal, no matter what we tried. My brother and I bled & bled the system untill about 3.00am one night with no joy. I was talking to an old mechanic a few days later, and he told me not to pump the pedal so agressivley. He reckoned the fluid to the rear was foaming in the lines and going nowhere. That night we bled the brakes again, pushing the pedal down real slow (about 10 seconds from top to bottom) and shut off the bleed nipple before slowly releasing the pedal, and hey presto, it worked. You may have already tried this, but if not, it may work for you.

 

[dieselDaryl]

FIXED!

So the brakes are awesome once again. I was able to lock them up tonight, something I haven't been able to do for some time.. The problem is I did all the fixes at one time and then testing the brakes so I don't know exactly which fix(es) made the difference.. anyway, here is what I did today:

-Replaced the rear brake hose with another factory hose from an 82BJ60. Re-bled the rear cylinders.
-Replaced the drums and shoes with the set from the 82BJ60. (side note: the set i installed tonight has less lining than the previous set)
-Lubed the adjusters
-Adjusted the e-brake cable.

If I was to venture a guess I'd say it was the pads not matching the radii of the drum that was the problem. What can one do about this in the future? take the pads to a shop to have them machines correctly? I also found that the adjuster on the right side wasn't working correctly.. But when I had tested it a few months ago, it had been soo...

Thanks to everyone for their tips. The truck now brakes a million times better than it did before, (even with the upgraded front calipers).

Garry: Thanks for posting the tip on bleeding. I figured that out in the past when I was bleeding the brakes on one of my cars. Now I do several quick (but not abrupt) pumps to the bottom of the pedal initially to get any big bubbles through the system, and then do several slower ones without bottoming out. I found that bottoming out foamed the brake fluid.


Daryl

 

[dieselDaryl]

Update:

After sitting all night, the brakes are where they were at before (not so good).. I recall this happening way back in the beginning of my brake problems now that its happened again.. There are no visible fluid leaks. Reservoir is at the level it was last night.. I'm going to bleed the system again today and see if it puts the brakes back to 'normal'

So it seems that air is obviously getting into the system but how? How can it get in but the brake fluid doesn't get out? Pinhole leak somewhere?

UGGHHH!!!! And here I thought I was done!!

Daryl

 

[UpsideDown]

I have seen this problem on several Land Cruisers and even after replacing just about every part (over time) there has been little resolution.

In the HJs and BJs that have the parking brake in the rear drums: loosening off the hand brake adjustment in the cab - all the way - and then adjusting the drums properly can make a major difference. Just remember to re-adjust the hand brake to spec in the cab once you've adjusted the drums.

A few caveats:

-Your brake cable must be in good working order
-Your drums must be within spec or you have to get your shoes radiused to match
-You have your master adjusted correctly
-and all kinds of other points I don't need to mention....

I have have isolated a few systems down to old hoses, but on replacement there's not that much improvement - but enough.

Hope you get it sorted out.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Update:

After sitting all night, the brakes are where they were at before (not so good).. I recall this happening way back in the beginning of my brake problems now that its happened again.. There are no visible fluid leaks. Reservoir is at the level it was last night.. I'm going to bleed the system again today and see if it puts the brakes back to 'normal'

So it seems that air is obviously getting into the system but how? How can it get in but the brake fluid doesn't get out? Pinhole leak somewhere?

UGGHHH!!!! And here I thought I was done!!

Daryl

Is the MC new?

 

[dieselDaryl]

Is the MC new?

No, the one I've got in there now is the original M/C. I'm debating replacing it..
I had a bigger bore (1") m/c in there during the past few months and it didn't make much of a difference but that was before I fixed whatever the problem with the drums was a couple of days ago..


So to update this problem, the pedal seem to get tighter after a couple minutes of driving around. I'm not sure if maybe it takes a while for the booster to 'free up'? Or perhaps after a couple hard trial stops, the shoes sit closer to the drums? I have no idea at this point.. I am trying to do some debugging to isolate the problem. I doubt its air in the system, because that wouldn't get 'better' after a few minutes, would it?

One thing I have noticed is there is a bit of a leak at the reservoir. Its a stupid design on te HJ m/cs, the cylinder just fits in as a friction fit and then there is a phillips screw between the two outlets that hold the reservoir in place.

 

[roscoFJ73]

No, the one I've got in there now is the original M/C. I'm debating replacing it..
.

So your using a 19 year old mc??. I would guess that it is letting fluid past the seals and probably not helping to push the air out .

Try putting your foot on hard for a while ,if it starts to sink then its definately toast

 

[dieselDaryl]

So your using a 19 year old mc??. I would guess that it is letting fluid past the seals and probably not helping to push the air out .

Try putting your foot on hard for a while ,if it starts to sink then its definately toast

Yes, and with 320,000k on it A new m/c is only available from the dealer at a price of around $250 I recall. Now that I've got the brakes relatively tight again I think I might throw one of the new 1" M/c's with the upgraded calipers on and see if that fixes the remaining sponginess. If so, I'll order up a new m/c. In the beginning ( a year ago) my initial thoughts were that it was the m/c and thats why I got bought the new 1" ones. However, it made no difference because i think the shoes or drums were out..

If I do get a new m/c I think I'll also get new pads and get them machined (profiled) to the drums..

So, I do this test with the engine NOT running, and with no vacuum left in the booster (pump the pedal a few times) right?

I also installed a stainless brakeline on the rear axle tonight and it has made a bit of a difference.. All in all, I can lock up all 4 tires on gravel and wet road now..

Daryl


Daryl