hi-speed steering questions (1 Viewer)

[mookie]

maybe someone on here can help me figure this out....i'm about to try some KoH style endurance racing with my rig and my steering is just way fast and squirrely feeling over about 40 mph. i've got 2.7 turns lock to lock which is nice for rock crawling but i thought it was way to quick for racing, but then i talked to a couple of racers and they said that's about what they run and love it so now i've just been trying to figure out why my rig feels like death at high speed. my axle has a cut and turn and new bearings and all steering components are tight so it's not anything like that. i've tried it with front and rear sucked down hard and that doesn't help either, so it's not a body roll issue.

also, why is it that toyota axles only need a 6" ram but tons take a 8" and rockwells take a 10" but i can drive circles around rigs with those axles? i know some of that is the increased width but i am almost positive that stock ton and rockwell knuckles don't turn as sharp as yota's do.

 

[Mace]

It may be more a steering feel issue than anything. Have you ever gotten a alllignment done on your rig? It also may be a suspension issue or purely a comfort issue. Drive faster more often and get used to it


The length of the knuckle arms is what defines the amount of throw that is required by the ram. The longer the arm, the longer the length of ram that is needed. One ton's typicaly have a certain "length" steering arms that accompanies them. That length is typicaly mimicked by aftermarket arm builders. Turning radius has a multitude of aspects that increase or decrease them.

 

[mookie]

It may be more a steering feel issue than anything. Have you ever gotten a alllignment done on your rig? It also may be a suspension issue or purely a comfort issue. Drive faster more often and get used to it


The length of the knuckle arms is what defines the amount of throw that is required by the ram. The longer the arm, the longer the length of ram that is needed. One ton's typicaly have a certain "length" steering arms that accompanies them. That length is typicaly mimicked by aftermarket arm builders. Turning radius has a multitude of aspects that increase or decrease them.

i haven't done an alignment, i can't stand to hear one more stupid fawker tell me that i've got a cool jeep

i have been driving it a good bit trying to get used to it, it still feels crappy to me like i'm an inch away from rolling it down the road at 50 mph

is it possible that a toyota knuckle turns more degrees in that same 2.5ish turns of the steering wheel than a dana 60?

 

[Mace]

is it possible that a toyota knuckle turns more degrees in that same 2.5ish turns of the steering wheel than a dana 60?

Even with full hydro in my cruiser (dana 60 front) I can drive down the highway at 60.

It is possible if your ratio between the pittman arm and the knuckle steering arms is off.

But, both axles (stock) limit out at about the same degrees turning total. The the system is balanced, then there is not going to be "faster" turning with a LC axle than a 60 axle.

What box are you running? The progressive Sag boxes actually have the exact same ratio of turning as the 4 turn lock to lock boxes in the middle. The boxe's turning ratio actually increases as you get closer to full lock. Meaning, as you turn tighter, the box will actually turn faster. a 3.5 turn box lock to lock may be a better option for you.

 

[mookie]

full hydro.....trail-gear double ended ram....with 100cc danfoss orbital valve

 

[Mace]

I'd blame TG

Load reactive or non load reactive orbital?

 

[mookie]

i've been trying to find out how many degrees a toyota knuckle moves without steering stops does anyone know?

don't know how accurate this is but i found factory D60 is 38 and stock rockwell is 28 on pirate.

 

[mookie]

I'd blame TG

Load reactive or non load reactive orbital?

it doesn't automatically return to center, i think non?

how many turns lock to lock is your hydro setup?

 

[Mace]

Mine is a single ended non load reactive. I want to say it is about 3 turns lock to lock (one side is greater than the other due to the single ended ram tho).

Your's is proabbly not load reactive, which does make a difference for "road feel".

 

[Eskimo]

The reason for the longer ram's is the distance between the kingpin and where the ram bolts to the knuckle. Bigger axles have bigger knuckles, and therefore the attachment point is further away, needing more ram length to turn the same.

I'm also running about a 3-turn box and have driven at 50 on the road and trail and it feels good to me, though mine is load reactive.

It is that you feel nothing through your hands, but instead are constantly "chasing" the movement of the vehicle, giving you that feeling of impending doom?

I'd also check your caster #'s.. you might not have enough.. (or too much) 5° with 38's worked well for me with regular pitman arm steering. (Yes full hydro will help mitigate bad caster, but it the knuckles are always trying to turn instead of track straight, it's not helping anyone)

 

[mookie]

It is that you feel nothing through your hands, but instead are constantly "chasing" the movement of the vehicle, giving you that feeling of impending doom?

that's sounds correct....i'm thinking that i just need to drive it more

when i did the cut and turn i set my caster to 0

i'm going to take the go-cart sized steering wheel off and put my factory schoolbus sized one on and see how that feels today after work

 

[Mace]

0 deg caster is one of the issues.

non load reactive is another.

See how it does with the big wheel. I'm betting that it is not going to help much

 

[mookie]

what kind of caster should i have with 40's? i can adjust that a little with my upper links right?

 

[rusty_tlc]

i haven't done an alignment, i can't stand to hear one more stupid fawker tell me that i've got a cool jeep

i have been driving it a good bit trying to get used to it, it still feels crappy to me like i'm an inch away from rolling it down the road at 50 mph

is it possible that a toyota knuckle turns more degrees in that same 2.5ish turns of the steering wheel than a dana 60?

The alignment on a Cruiser can be done with a tape measure in your garage. If you want to get fancy you can make a simple tool that makes it easier

The screws are for different size tires

 

[Mace]

add about 5 deg caster and then take it for a drive, it should help immensely..

 

[Mace]

add about 5 deg caster and then take it for a drive, it should help immensely..

 

[mookie]

i did the tape measure alignment when i did the front 4-link

the big steering wheel sucked, i put the little one back on lol

didn't get a chance to adust caster yet

i drove it some more yesterday and on payment in 2wd it just feels gawdawful. But i can go way faster on dirt roads in 4-high, hitting 4th gear and accelerating it's actually not bad at all

Mace, aside from the return to center thing, what is the actual difference between load-reactive, and non?

 

[Mace]

The easiest answer is by realting the orbital to a open or closed loop system. Because the single ended rams have a snaller amount of fluid needed to steer to one side than the other the orbital needs to be able to accommodate that difference in fluid. If you are driving down the road with a SE ram, you will notice that the small chenges you make to the wheel to keep the car going straight will actually be turning the wheel as well. (open loop)
With a load reactive orbital and matched DE cylinder, it is the same fluid volume to lock on both sides. THis way, your steering wheel can return to the same point over and over again. (closed loop)
Theoretically, if you run a load reactive on a SE cylinder it should lock up eventually. However, I know of a couple of these setups and have not seen it happen..

LR will give you much more "road feel"