alia176
SILVER Star
Since this was the first time they used HAM radios for coordination and communication, how did everything work out? I was just curious.
A.
A.
HAM radio usage in CM'07
- Thread starter alia176
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Let's just say there were opportunities for improvement. 
The CM07 HQ set up at Slickrock campground had a 2m radio and base antenna but the person that they were planning to man it was not available. I don't recall the details... they had to leave early... or couldn't come... or something. Since a licensed HAM is required to operate the station that was an issue and I do not believe it was manned during the actual event. Perhaps the days leading up to the event but not on Weds-Sat.
The Moab repeaters were not functioning. Again, the details are fuzzy since nobody made contact with the owner prior to the event. It could be as simple as a change in the offset or access tones.
Due to the weather, the trail organization on Saturday was a zoo. This is where a "Moab Base" and good radio communications could have been a wonderful thing. The problem was that a number of trails were canceled but there was no way to communicate this to participants. The trail leaders that had plenty of open slots had no way to communicate back to "Moab base" that they could take more vehicles if someone wanted a slot.
Fortunately, we had open slots on Fins so Jon and David came over to the meeting point and ran the trail with us. Unfortunately, Steve didn't get word in time so his run was canceled on Saturday so he & Wendy stayed in camp. From what I heard, this was a common issue for many people on Saturday.
On the positive side, there were 2m radio equipped vehicles on every trail that I did. There were four of us including the gunner on E-Hill where trucks tend to get spread out beyond CB range.
CB communication between trucks will be with us at events like CM, perhaps for a long time. I was surprised to find out that a CB isn't a required item for TLCA events and every day I loaned someone my spare CB radio and mag mount. This would be illegal for a HAM to do with an amateur radio. Communication with the trail leader and among vehicles is CRITICAL as far as most of us are concerned. I think a radio of some kind should be a requirement for TLCA events.
On the "lighter side" I was monitoring the Kane's Creek 2m channel on Friday and heard the trail leader (I think) and the gunner. They were running really late getting off the trail on to the dinner on Friday night. They were chatting on the 2m channel and both were pretty disgusted with "the guy in the 80" and complained that he couldn't keep up and they were continually stopping and waiting on this guy. They speculated that he didn't want to scratch his truck (I can relate to that )
Anyway, I knew Graham was doing Kane's that day so I was secretly hoping they were not talking about a HDC member. I relayed this to Graham that night and he filled me in on the details. Seems the guy was a wuss (hope he isn't reading the HDC scection...) and was reallllly slow on the trail. Graham spent most of the day riding the guy's rear bumper trying (unsuccessfully) to push him along the trail. Damn 80 drivers.
-Mike-
The CM07 HQ set up at Slickrock campground had a 2m radio and base antenna but the person that they were planning to man it was not available. I don't recall the details... they had to leave early... or couldn't come... or something. Since a licensed HAM is required to operate the station that was an issue and I do not believe it was manned during the actual event. Perhaps the days leading up to the event but not on Weds-Sat.
The Moab repeaters were not functioning. Again, the details are fuzzy since nobody made contact with the owner prior to the event. It could be as simple as a change in the offset or access tones.
Due to the weather, the trail organization on Saturday was a zoo. This is where a "Moab Base" and good radio communications could have been a wonderful thing. The problem was that a number of trails were canceled but there was no way to communicate this to participants. The trail leaders that had plenty of open slots had no way to communicate back to "Moab base" that they could take more vehicles if someone wanted a slot.
Fortunately, we had open slots on Fins so Jon and David came over to the meeting point and ran the trail with us. Unfortunately, Steve didn't get word in time so his run was canceled on Saturday so he & Wendy stayed in camp. From what I heard, this was a common issue for many people on Saturday.
On the positive side, there were 2m radio equipped vehicles on every trail that I did. There were four of us including the gunner on E-Hill where trucks tend to get spread out beyond CB range.
CB communication between trucks will be with us at events like CM, perhaps for a long time. I was surprised to find out that a CB isn't a required item for TLCA events and every day I loaned someone my spare CB radio and mag mount. This would be illegal for a HAM to do with an amateur radio. Communication with the trail leader and among vehicles is CRITICAL as far as most of us are concerned. I think a radio of some kind should be a requirement for TLCA events.
On the "lighter side" I was monitoring the Kane's Creek 2m channel on Friday and heard the trail leader (I think) and the gunner. They were running really late getting off the trail on to the dinner on Friday night. They were chatting on the 2m channel and both were pretty disgusted with "the guy in the 80" and complained that he couldn't keep up and they were continually stopping and waiting on this guy. They speculated that he didn't want to scratch his truck (I can relate to that
)Anyway, I knew Graham was doing Kane's that day so I was secretly hoping they were not talking about a HDC member. I relayed this to Graham that night and he filled me in on the details. Seems the guy was a wuss (hope he isn't reading the HDC scection...) and was reallllly slow on the trail. Graham spent most of the day riding the guy's rear bumper trying (unsuccessfully) to push him along the trail. Damn 80 drivers.
-Mike-
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On the "lighter side" I was monitoring the Kane's Creek 2m channel on Friday and heard the trail leader (I think) and the gunner. They were running really late getting off the trail on to the dinner on Friday night. They were chatting on the 2m channel and both were pretty disgusted with "the guy in the 80" and complained that he couldn't keep up and they were continually stopping and waiting on this guy. They speculated that he didn't want to scratch his truck (I can relate to that
Anyway, I knew Graham was doing Kane's that day so I was secretly hoping they were not talking about a HDC member. I relayed this to Graham that night and he filled me in on the details. Seems the guy was a wuss (hope he isn't reading the HDC scection...) and was reallllly slow on the trail. Graham spent most of the day riding the guy's rear bumper trying (unsuccessfully) to push him along the trail. Damn 80 drivers.
-Mike-
I have no HAM info to report but I can attest to the wuss in the blue 80. Sucker was pimped with color matched powdercoated ARB, Xtreme Hilift, and 35's. In the beginning he was running 3rd behind David. In the open flats, basically a dirt road, he was getting toasted and David and the leader were almost out of horizon view. I rode his bumper like I was trying to read it but he never tried to go faster. I passed him and another 80 passed him at a stoppage which left four of us up front and 12 poor saps following this younger guy the rest of the day.
As Ali has said before, "Drive it like you stole it."
Graham
Do 2M rigs revert to simplex when you're not using the repeater?
Yep, that's how simplex (unit to unit) works. Transmit and receive are on the same frequency, like CB's. To use a repeater you need to be transmitting on one frequency and receiving on another, which are the opposite of the repeater frequencies.
The simple answer is yes.
Amateur radios are much more complex than CB radios. You can equate simplex to a CB channel. A convoy of vehicles that want to talk to each other on CB will select a channel and receive/transmit on that channel. Same with 2m simplex. You can set your 2m radio to a specific frequency/channel and leave it there. In the 2m band plan, there are several predefined simplex frequencies for use with voice communications.
Repeater usage with 2m typically is where a radio will be set up (ie programmed) to transmit on a given frequency and receive on another (called the offset.) The transmitting radio will turn on the repeater by sending a predetermined tone. This might sound complicated but it is basically a one-time set up of your radio for communicating through your local repeaters.
You have probably set up your family's FRS radios with 'privacy' tones. This enables you to block other FRS radio transmissions that don't send "your" privacy tones. 2m radios have the same feature in simplex. Modern 2m radios have many other features and I am just beginning to learn some of them.
FYI, I have programmed the FRS & GMRS frequencies in my 2m radio. I was surprised to find some big trucks are using FRS. I suspect this was a few buddies that were traveling together and wanted the privacy that CB doesn't give.
HTH.
-Mike-
Amateur radios are much more complex than CB radios. You can equate simplex to a CB channel. A convoy of vehicles that want to talk to each other on CB will select a channel and receive/transmit on that channel. Same with 2m simplex. You can set your 2m radio to a specific frequency/channel and leave it there. In the 2m band plan, there are several predefined simplex frequencies for use with voice communications.
Repeater usage with 2m typically is where a radio will be set up (ie programmed) to transmit on a given frequency and receive on another (called the offset.) The transmitting radio will turn on the repeater by sending a predetermined tone. This might sound complicated but it is basically a one-time set up of your radio for communicating through your local repeaters.
You have probably set up your family's FRS radios with 'privacy' tones. This enables you to block other FRS radio transmissions that don't send "your" privacy tones. 2m radios have the same feature in simplex. Modern 2m radios have many other features and I am just beginning to learn some of them.
FYI, I have programmed the FRS & GMRS frequencies in my 2m radio. I was surprised to find some big trucks are using FRS. I suspect this was a few buddies that were traveling together and wanted the privacy that CB doesn't give.
HTH.
-Mike-
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Just found this! Interesting that the radio thing did not work out. It will in time. Those Moab repeaters are wonky-we had trouble last year, and I went into the Radio Shack (where the control is) on main and we still had some problems. The owner is a crusty old radio dude, but if we enlisted his help, I think he'd be into it.
Maybe next year a control operator can be found to monitor the base station and the different run frequencies, but then they'll miss the wheeling fun. I do think good communications with 2m would completely change the Cruise Moab experience for the better.
The 80 series ruled Kane Creek last year, but luckily most of our trucks already had more scratches than paint. The Blue 80 sounds like John Power's old truck which was pimped to the max, and sold to some dude from Colorado.
B-In Norcal, we typically give HTs to the newbie, non-radio guys. While they can't transmit, they still hear everything, and most often take the test the next chance they get. It's been a very effective sales technique. It's a good way to experience the clarity and range of Ham radio without breaking the law.
Maybe next year a control operator can be found to monitor the base station and the different run frequencies, but then they'll miss the wheeling fun. I do think good communications with 2m would completely change the Cruise Moab experience for the better.
The 80 series ruled Kane Creek last year, but luckily most of our trucks already had more scratches than paint. The Blue 80 sounds like John Power's old truck which was pimped to the max, and sold to some dude from Colorado.
B-In Norcal, we typically give HTs to the newbie, non-radio guys. While they can't transmit, they still hear everything, and most often take the test the next chance they get. It's been a very effective sales technique. It's a good way to experience the clarity and range of Ham radio without breaking the law.
alia176
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #9
David,
Here's another way to answer your question:
The frequency you tune the radio on to determines whether it's a Simplex or a Repeater freq.
Tune to 146.520 - National Simplex freq (same as CB 19 sorta)
146.460 - HDCruiser simplex freq (vehicle to vehicle comm)
145.285 - Repeater freq with offset, PLL, etc.. (long distance comm)
You don't have to turn on any mode to go between Simplex and Repeater; just turn the tune freq (VF0) knob. However, each repeater freq must be "set up" so that the next time you tune into that freq, you're all set to talk and receive.
HTH.
Here's another way to answer your question:
The frequency you tune the radio on to determines whether it's a Simplex or a Repeater freq.
Tune to 146.520 - National Simplex freq (same as CB 19 sorta)
146.460 - HDCruiser simplex freq (vehicle to vehicle comm)
145.285 - Repeater freq with offset, PLL, etc.. (long distance comm)
You don't have to turn on any mode to go between Simplex and Repeater; just turn the tune freq (VF0) knob. However, each repeater freq must be "set up" so that the next time you tune into that freq, you're all set to talk and receive.
HTH.
As long as you set up the radio first, that's true (at least with mine). You could talk simplex on a repeater frequency, but who would want to? It will be busy, and there are a bunch of other channels out there.
Several of us were bantering on how to find the operator of the repeaters in Moab so the kinks could be worked out. This is good information that I will pass on to Nathanial at Rising Sun. He was the primary guy promoting 2m communications at CM07 and he is the one that set up the base station.
Cruiserdrew said:
Great idea and the excuse I needed to buy a HT.
Seriously though, I will still bring a loaner CB for our guests and new members. We will frequently assist a newbie through an obstacle using the radio and check with them to see how they are doing if the terrain is getting tougher than we think they were expecting. It's also good to use the air time to give them more information about the area where we are spending the day and reinforce some of the off-road protocol.
At CM07 we had a driver that was inexperienced; both as a driver and off-road (16 or 17 years old.) The truck had a CB, thank goodness. The driver was in the truck in front of me as we started the first part of Hell's Revenge. After 2-3 attempts at an aggressive/wrong line on a fairly big rock, the vehicle (80-Series) rolled back toward me and stopped. I got on the radio and told the driver to take a line about 2' to the right. She just sat there and didn't move. I calmly repeated the suggestion and she replied on the CB that her truck wouldn't move. It took a minute or two to determine that the engine had stalled and the slight panic had affected the driver's judgment and ability to correct. By having 2-way communications on the CB, I was able to get her to restart the engine, change her approach to the rock, and the whole group was on the way again. I was not in a location where hopping out of the truck would have been possible (too steep.)
-Mike-
thanks, steve- i spent half my G*d- damned life yakking on VHF FM- the ones we use have different channels for simplex and for hitting the repeater- i have never used a 2M radio- use HF and UHF a lot, also
so they have PL tones for privacy, too? like the FRS/ GMRS radios?
how many watts output is legal>? how much works/ how far can you be from a repeater/ are they line-of sight only?
so they have PL tones for privacy, too? like the FRS/ GMRS radios?
how many watts output is legal>? how much works/ how far can you be from a repeater/ are they line-of sight only?
PS- one thing I have noticed trying to use a handheld while driving- its' a ROYAL P.I.T.A.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
when GMRS became cheap/ available I thought this would be the Great White Hope (tm) , Greg W. and I went out and tried them and it was UNSAT! too much trouble-
when GMRS became cheap/ available I thought this would be the Great White Hope (tm) , Greg W. and I went out and tried them and it was UNSAT! too much trouble-
Mike- I though 2M was VHF, what is the freq? GMRS/ FRS are in the 440 ++Mhz range, eh>??
and 2M is in the 14's??????
are you still able to get radios that can program such a wide range? do you get full power output on tx????????
inquiring minds wants to KNOW!!!!!!
and 2M is in the 14's??????
are you still able to get radios that can program such a wide range? do you get full power output on tx????????
inquiring minds wants to KNOW!!!!!!
David,
Two problems here. #1 is that I am a newbie and do not consider myself a good source for answers. #2 is there are a lot of questions you might have and this 1-at-a-time with hours and days between replies will be frustrating. I think you are at the point where you should start reading some of the information sources for amateur radio.
2m is 144MHz (aka VHF); 70cm is 430MHz (aka UHF)
As stated before, a Technician license pretty much gives you free run on the VHF and UHF HAM frequencies (2m and 70cm, respectively) There are "dual band" radios like the one that Steve and I selected, that gives you wide band receive that covers from "108 to 520 MHz, and 700 to 999.99 MHz (cellular blocked), including AM Aircraft, Public Safety, Government, Business, and, of course, Amateur communications." It also has NOAA weather channels. Pretty much all "phone" (i.e. voice) communications in the 2m & 70cm Amateur bands is using FM. These radios are both FM and AM capable and are easily modified to transmit out-of-band, but transmitting out of band would be illegal unless there was an emergency.
As for "how far?" the answer is "it varies." As for "line of sight?" the answer is yes, kinda. Perhaps an example will help. Steve was driving back from Moab and, from Cuba, he hit the Mt Taylor repeater and I hit the Mt Taylor repeater from my house. He also hit the Sandia repeater and we talked to each other. I think we tried simplex and could not connect, but that is around 90 miles car-to-car so that doesn't surprise me. During the drive up to Moab, Steve & Jon were about 30 miles in front of me. I was slowly catching up but we were in constant communications via 2m. Once we got about 3/4 mile apart we could talk via CB (not before though... we tried!)
There are things that I don't understand and cannot explain. For example, I was listening to a conversation between 2 guys Sunday afternoon. One was in Trinidad (the country, not Colorado!) The other guy was in Belen, NM. I have no idea how they were linking up on VHF but I don't think Trinidad is "line of sight" from Albuquerque. BTW, according to this guy they need rain in Trinidad; their crops are burning up due to the lack of water.
There are some output power guidelines but I do not remember if there are maximums for HAMs like other bands and equipment (e.g. FRS & CB) The radio that I have will transmit at 50w on VHF and 40w on UHF. These are limitations built into the radio and some mobile equipment can do 100w in these frequencies. I believe the HT (handy-talkies or handheld) radios usually have much less power (? 5w) due to battery life and safety. Again, I am not an expert and you should do the research that interests you.
-Mike-
Two problems here. #1 is that I am a newbie and do not consider myself a good source for answers. #2 is there are a lot of questions you might have and this 1-at-a-time with hours and days between replies will be frustrating. I think you are at the point where you should start reading some of the information sources for amateur radio.
2m is 144MHz (aka VHF); 70cm is 430MHz (aka UHF)
As stated before, a Technician license pretty much gives you free run on the VHF and UHF HAM frequencies (2m and 70cm, respectively) There are "dual band" radios like the one that Steve and I selected, that gives you wide band receive that covers from "108 to 520 MHz, and 700 to 999.99 MHz (cellular blocked), including AM Aircraft, Public Safety, Government, Business, and, of course, Amateur communications." It also has NOAA weather channels. Pretty much all "phone" (i.e. voice) communications in the 2m & 70cm Amateur bands is using FM. These radios are both FM and AM capable and are easily modified to transmit out-of-band, but transmitting out of band would be illegal unless there was an emergency.
As for "how far?" the answer is "it varies." As for "line of sight?" the answer is yes, kinda. Perhaps an example will help. Steve was driving back from Moab and, from Cuba, he hit the Mt Taylor repeater and I hit the Mt Taylor repeater from my house. He also hit the Sandia repeater and we talked to each other. I think we tried simplex and could not connect, but that is around 90 miles car-to-car so that doesn't surprise me. During the drive up to Moab, Steve & Jon were about 30 miles in front of me. I was slowly catching up but we were in constant communications via 2m. Once we got about 3/4 mile apart we could talk via CB (not before though... we tried!)
There are things that I don't understand and cannot explain. For example, I was listening to a conversation between 2 guys Sunday afternoon. One was in Trinidad (the country, not Colorado!) The other guy was in Belen, NM. I have no idea how they were linking up on VHF but I don't think Trinidad is "line of sight" from Albuquerque.
BTW, according to this guy they need rain in Trinidad; their crops are burning up due to the lack of water.There are some output power guidelines but I do not remember if there are maximums for HAMs like other bands and equipment (e.g. FRS & CB) The radio that I have will transmit at 50w on VHF and 40w on UHF. These are limitations built into the radio and some mobile equipment can do 100w in these frequencies. I believe the HT (handy-talkies or handheld) radios usually have much less power (? 5w) due to battery life and safety. Again, I am not an expert and you should do the research that interests you.
-Mike-
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Mike, thanks. I need to get my license.
alia176
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #17
I was listening to a conversation between 2 guys Sunday afternoon. One was in Trinidad (the country, not Colorado!) The other guy was in Belen, NM. I have no idea how they were linking up on VHF but I don't think Trinidad is "line of sight" from Albuquerque.
-Mike-
Mike,
could they been talking using IRLP (internet relay protocol)? That's some distance
Another resource for David: http://www.rtpnet.org/~rars/repeater/rptrgide.htm
AA
Dunno. I picked up the conversation while scanning the programmed NM repeater frequencies. They were on a non-MegaLink repeater in Belen as I recall. I only caught about 2 minutes of their exchange on my way to the grocery store.
-Mike-
Re IRLP -
Yes. That's one of the test questions.
Yes. That's one of the test questions.
