*** guaging interest **** cheap air bump stops (1 Viewer)

[ats4x4dotcom]

Both of you are missing the point.

You need to first off, understand why its bad to have an adverse reaction to hitting the bump stop, and whay you want to try and control that better, and secondly, a 4" bump stop wont work when it is 1/3 to half of the travel the vehicle has, it IS NOT a shocker, it is a bump stop, so dont try and use it as one.

Just FYI for you, because we have been down this road, and fixed afew others have done that dont work, but who am i to stem the bleeding from banging your head against the wall trying to make it work.

Go knock yourself out, and see how you go.

 

[Halogrinder]

ok, so im expecting probobly 12 inches of movement or artilculation out of the test truck im going to be using.... since it has radius arms, and a wristed arm w/ coils, im assuming its going to be flexing better than most. this is ONLY to keep the axle from slamming the oilpan or frame rails, its not going to be used to slam a truck down from 15 feet in the air, and thinking you can keep on motoring along..... i KNOW its going to rebound hard because of no valving, but its GOT to be better than just a plain ole poly bumpstop just waiting to be smashed into a pancake. heck, i was going to weld a peice of plate on end half way down the poly bumpstop, so if i heard a "clank" i knew i was getting too carried away. i think with a good set of shocks, they can control the rapid rebound that will happen. heck it might be worth mounting 2 shocks in the front... my suspension is ready for that stock, so i might go that way... experimentation is what its all about. yes, your going to bounce back up, but how much? i dunno, lemme build these and mount em up. jump/thrash/break truck.ill report back. if it doesnt work, i give up, modify, or buy Fox's setup.

i gotta go to bed, its a skool night (work)

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

you still dont get it, 4" with that little bit of travel you have wont work.

2" bumps will be more than enough, but if its bling you want, make em 2" travel in 4" body, and mount them higher, because cycling them 4" [not that they will at slow speed so they will lose you 3" of travel] will only limit travel, and work the shock harder doing something it isnt designed to do.

 

[Mace]

ATS, what is wrong with using them a lot? A SAW or FOX air bump is essentially a mini air shock. During crawling you do not do anything fast (why air shocks work so well) During fast speed running they could heat up but honestly, The desert racers use theirs all the time.


I guess I don't get why you do not like the idea..


when cycled slowly with the right valving you can still use the full amount of shock. That is why there are valves in a standard one.
A 2" air bump with no valving will probably not build up enough pressure to actually STOP the axle from bottoming out.

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Mace,
Your first question shows you peobably need to study how they work a little more.

when you have played with afew, come back to me so we dont have you questoining how it works with "maybe's" and "probablys" because no body likes doing things twice.

We have done alot of hard work to get what we know now, and was simply trying to give info needed to make the basis to make a correct decision, and the formula's used to make it work as close to what is required as possible.

 

[Mace]

Mace,
Your first question shows you peobably need to study how they work a little more.

when you have played with afew, come back to me so we dont have you questoining how it works with "maybe's" and "probablys" because no body likes doing things twice.

We have done alot of hard work to get what we know now, and was simply trying to give info needed to make the basis to make a correct decision, and the formula's used to make it work as close to what is required as possible.

I get it, you don't know nearly as much as you like everyone to believe. Cool.


By using a "air bump" with no valving on the inside of it you have a simple piston with nowhere to go. I said probably because it will depend on how much pressure you are planning on running in the valve. Too much psi and it will hit VERY hard with only 2" of shaft movement when you start to get into the jounce stop. Too little PSI and you are going to bottom out the air bump. With just 2" of piston travel you are seriously limiting the adjustability of the shock. A 4" travel air bump will have a much easier time gradually adding rebound..

The bumps out on the market today are essentialy mini air shocks.. Now, they will over heat the oil over time but they are designed to use the full travel under articulation (that is what the valving is for) but will slow travel down with a hard impact.

You keep talking about articulation, where are you measuring the travel? A the shock? At the end of the axle?

If you are so superior then answer the fawking questions. All you have said is that IT WON"T WORK, enlighten us to why it does not work and how fox and SAW have it all wrong with their designs...

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I think you should incorporate some sort of polyurethane(or whatever similar material you want) bumpstop within the air bump, at least for prototyping purposes. This way, if the air bump has a blowout on a hard landing there is some residual impact dampening to prevent the axle from effectively making solid contact with the frame.

Just a thought

 

[Halogrinder]

well the end will have one of those low profile poly snubber thingies on it....
i think it would be difficult trying to put on on the inside, since it will take up where the oil/air is supposed to be. this is really turning out to be more of a pain in teh butt than i expected.... im still going to make them, install em and see what happens. mace, you seem to be on the same page as me, and i appreciate the input. i dont claim to know everything, cause i dont, but experimentation seems to be the next route. ATS, i understand you have worked with them, but show me. telling me it just wont work, doesnt cut it with me. i just dont get it doesnt work with me either. there is no reason to be upset or get frustrated with this topic either mang.

you say, i need to have a correct desision, and not waste my money, and no one likes to do things twice.... isnt that called R&D?

well, im in phase one of my prototype. im gonna call em "A.Noll bumps" :laughing:

i love my name..lol

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

I get it, you don't know nearly as much as you like everyone to believe. Cool.


By using a "air bump" with no valving on the inside of it you have a simple piston with nowhere to go. I said probably because it will depend on how much pressure you are planning on running in the valve. Too much psi and it will hit VERY hard with only 2" of shaft movement when you start to get into the jounce stop. Too little PSI and you are going to bottom out the air bump. With just 2" of piston travel you are seriously limiting the adjustability of the shock. A 4" travel air bump will have a much easier time gradually adding rebound..

The bumps out on the market today are essentialy mini air shocks.. Now, they will over heat the oil over time but they are designed to use the full travel under articulation (that is what the valving is for) but will slow travel down with a hard impact.

You keep talking about articulation, where are you measuring the travel? A the shock? At the end of the axle?

If you are so superior then answer the fawking questions. All you have said is that IT WON"T WORK, enlighten us to why it does not work and how fox and SAW have it all wrong with their designs...

Thats why they are progressive, and with short ["12" of travel or less] travel is travel, where ever you like to measure it, but most clever people manage to work that one out by themselves.

I will explain the formula for you again, but if you didnt read it the first tiome, i doubt repeating it will help.

if you have 2" of travel, and ride height is centre, you have 2" of travel before the bump comes into play, which makes the travel over the following 4" more difficult to compress, not conducive to wheel travel, or articulation, especially when you measure how many seconds, if any the vehicle has to compress the progressive bump in slow wheeling even, unless you stop and wait for it to compress as far as it will, and then it may even push the vehicle into less articulation, as it rebounds, which probably isnt a good thing on a vehicle crossed up, maybe hanging on the balance, that it unloads over a 3rd of its travel while unweighted.

Now, lets go back to my question, which is better, ia sked you, and why?

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

ATS, i understand you have worked with them, but show me. telling me it just wont work,

Its simple really, but go build em, and get back to us, that should be conclusive enough for you Im sure.

 

[DHONDAGOD]

ats, correct me if im wrong here as im trying to learn this too... what halo is suggesting is an "air spring" to slow down or absorb the last few inches of suspension travel, however, this would redirect its stored energy BACK into moving the suspension into rebound by design correct? an "air bump" dosent rebound per se' but compresses, converts the compression energy absorbed from the suspension into heat,dissapates the heat through the body then resets itself (gently) to start the cycle over again? basically a correctly valved air bumb dosent "push" the suspension into rebound if im interpeting this right.. or am i way off base?

chris

 

[Mace]

Thats why they are progressive, and with short ["12" of travel or less] travel is travel, where ever you like to measure it, but most clever people manage to work that one out by themselves.

I will explain the formula for you again, but if you didnt read it the first tiome, i doubt repeating it will help.

if you have 2" of travel, and ride height is centre, you have 2" of travel before the bump comes into play, which makes the travel over the following 4" more difficult to compress, not conducive to wheel travel, or articulation, especially when you measure how many seconds, if any the vehicle has to compress the progressive bump in slow wheeling even, unless you stop and wait for it to compress as far as it will, and then it may even push the vehicle into less articulation, as it rebounds, which probably isnt a good thing on a vehicle crossed up, maybe hanging on the balance, that it unloads over a 3rd of its travel while unweighted.

Now, lets go back to my question, which is better, ia sked you, and why?

I am not an overly clever person, but I still do not see how you are doing anything but talking down to people here.

If I have 2" of travel and ride height is centered then I have 1" uptravel and 1" down travel. Fine for lowriders but not much use for a rockcrawler. Most rigs want their suspension to flex...

I am starting to wonder if you understand about wheelin or valving in a shock. The second thing I am wondering is if you are actually reading what Halo has in mind. Halo is not going toput any valving in his air bump, just some oil and gas. That effectivly creates a single rate air spring like Chris mentioned. The shock will not have that much of a headache dealing with 3" of pressure. Just like a coilover does not really have an issue with dual rate coilovers.

Now, if a bump is valved specifically for a certain application then there is no reason it cannot be used in the natural suspension flex. Rockcrawling is typically a slow speed thing and the bump will never work hard enough to actually build up enough heat to make a difference. I DO know people that have used Saw Airbumps with only 1" of uptravel before they engage. These units worked well for rockcrawling, dune running and playing Robby Grodon through the Desert. I still fail to see where you actually say how this is a bad thing.. Do they overheat? is foaming too much of an issue? Do you experience shock fade that renders the bumps less effective???

I never saw a calculation that you posted. Just some opinons on suspension travel lengths. Please reitterate wha the calculation is for us slow people.

You may indeed know what you are talking about. It is hard to tell because you continue to talk down to people. If you want us to understand what your concerns are then please communicate what the actual issues are.

I still cannot see how an unvalved, 2" air spring can engage softly and still give a positive engagement. There is not enough volume in the bump to make a 4K rig landing not bottom out.



Chris, Halo does not have any valving in his design, so it will just work as an air spring. And, like any other spring, will force the axle downward with some force (dependant on the pressure that it was running at static and the diameter of the piston and the length.)

I wonder if a thread on Air bags would help the thought process here.

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

ats, correct me if im wrong here as im trying to learn this too... what halo is suggesting is an "air spring" to slow down or absorb the last few inches of suspension travel, however, this would redirect its stored energy BACK into moving the suspension into rebound by design correct?

chris

You said "air spring" what does a spring do when you compress it?

[or an air bag for that matter Mace?]

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

a single rate air spring like Chris mentioned. The shock will not have that much of a headache dealing with 3" of pressure.
.

You said the same thing "spring".

What does a spring do when you compress it?

How do you make a bump stop with no valving, that has oil and gas in it, that can create resistance, with no valving?

Now, if a bump is valved specifically for a certain application then there is no reason it cannot be used in the natural suspension flex.

And my main point is that he is making something that is more of a small batch. If he makes 10 different sized it will cost more individually than a single size. Hence the waste of time thing..

So one size should fit all, but you say he should keep it simple, and not try and keep everyone happy, how do you do specific valving, and make them all the same? change cars to same as him maybe?.

still cannot see how an unvalved, 2" air spring can engage softly and still give a positive engagement.

If its unvalved, it wont have any resistance, and bump stops are normally progressive, otherwise, you may as well just fit a bypass tube to the last how ever many inches of travel you want the other valving for to your shock, because if it isnt progressive, its just adding rate to the shock valving, it isnt a compressable bump stop.

 

[Halogrinder]

ok ok obviously this is just getting into a argument, and it doesnt need to be. i think ATS, your having a hard time describing or showing us your point. mace, you seem to be like me, homebuilt stuff is cool, who knows how it works untill its tried, right? i dont have ANY experiance in these airbumps, it SEEMS like ATS does, but cannot get his message accross without mixing insults with tech. ATS , i think your getting too in depth with what im trying to make. you dont buy specific items, cause it aint gonna work well with what you got. these are the same thing. im not gonna put a yugo shock on my truck, it aint gonna fit. i dont expect GOAT1 off of the pirate board to stick my little "A.Noll bumps" on his bad ass linked rig, that he jumps 20 feet in the air.... what i could see happen, is someone who just doesnt want to CLANK on polyurethane, and doesnt on purpose jump his s*** regularly,but rather get a little feedback on a bump that will just slow down the crash.lol

so,

lets hold off untill ATS can say " i told ya so" or i can say " see it works for me"

 

[woody]

<raises hand> interested

(and staying outta the tech portion, since I don't even have bumps right now....)

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

lets hold off untill ATS can say " i told ya so" or i can say " see it works for me"

Wow, I think I said that back early on page 1......

 

[snailwagon]

Maybe get some proper sized and density elastomer for a negative spring with dampening?

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

ATS's point is that there will be nothing to dampen the rebound on the air spring except the shock. Whether the shock will be enough to control the airbump or not is another question.

Ary