Feedback on Alcan Springs?

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One of the things that has made me wait on Alcans or any other "custom" spring (Deaver and National too) is that i would seem to be best to wait until my 60 is done.
I dont know if it would be cost effective to order Alcans now, then add a winch and back bumper later that effects the weight of the rig and the specs of the springs. Or order them considering I will add the winch and stuff and then never being able to afford them and having springs made for weights I never carry...

Jason
 
Grease Cruiser said:
Yep,
Told them that the 60 would be used for expedition use and the just the motor alone was several hundred pounds heavier than the 2F. It's actually not but I thought with the bullbar and winch (someday) that this would be good. I basically told them they need to make them as heavy duty as possible (within reason) to carry the extra weight of the motor/tranny, 4-5 adults, roof rack full of gear, and I wanted to be able to tow a 18ft flatbed car hauler trailer.

They said "No problem" that most of the complaints about their springs are that they are too stiff and don't flex enough. I told them that I am not concerned with any of that and want to be able to carry the weight more than anything.

The rear springs were the first to start sagging and invertingthe shackles. Then about a few days later the fronts started to do it. The rears were by far the worst so I ended up having to use 2 6' tow safety chains with turn buckles to keep the shackles from inverting. I was on a 2,500 mile road trip and had to tighten the shackles in an upright position to keep them from inverting. What a pain in the ass that was. But it worked. Drove it from Dallas, Texas back to central Colorado.

So that's my story with Alcan. Through telling people in the last few weeks about what happened, I have heard more complaints about Alcan Springs. I have heard of main leafs breaking, loss of lift (like mine) in short periods of time, and not so good customer service.

I was really bummed about the entire scene. I had heard great things about them and was excited about heavy duty custom springs that no one else makes. Oh well.
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I may be confused here. When you refer to your shackles 'inverting", exactly what do you mean? Are the shackles pivoted away from the axle or towards the axle? My understanding had been that "anti-inversion" shackles prevent the shackles from pivoting back towards the axle, past verticle. I am having trouble visualizing just what your rear shackles were doing, and how your field fix solved this problem.
Maybe i'm just confused aboutthe definition of "inverting".
Regardless of any confusion about definitions, it sounds like your situation sucks, and they dealt poorly with it. Good luck.
 
I may have contributed to the confusion as well. In my case the springs are too long and "push" the shackle away from the axle to the point the "anti-inversion" cross pin hits the spring. At that point the spring has a hard time contining to move through its range as it needs to get longer as it flattens out.

Here's a shot imediately after I installed the Alcans using my original "short" shackles. After a few miles they were actually riding on the anti-inversion pin. You'll notice at this point they have significant arch left but nowhere to move.
BTW, I thought this is what Grease was referring too as well.

P1010078.JPG


Check out the height - with the original shackle as shown above. See why I'm not too thrilled about using using longer shackles? Sorry I don't have a pick of the longer shackles but you get the idea.

P1010076.JPG
 
"Inverting" may be the wrong word but what was happening was the stock shackles (no anti-inversion) were not sitting vertically after the lift. Due to the increased length in the lift springs, everytime the spring compressed (over a bump or around a corner) the shackle would travel farther back (rear springs=back, front springs=forward) It would cause the shackles to move beyond a certain point and the shackles would automatically go up toward the frame. the shackles would remain in this position against the frame banging if I hit a bump. Sorry no pics. It was like having hydraulics if you will. You could hear and feel the shackles hit the frame and then you notice the rear, the front, or one side sit 4" lower. Instant low rider but no switches.

The rear springs were the worst. They would do it every time I hit a sizeable bump in the roadway. To top it all off, it happened to me the first time as I was leaving on a 2,500 mile road trip. In 10 days and 2,500 miles, it happened to me about 20-30 times.

I would have to get out the highlift and start raising the body of the vehicle. Once I got the body high enough and started to separate the frame from the "inverted" shackle, the spring would decompress and raise the vehicle back to its normal height. This got to be very old and time consuming.

My fix was I took 2 pieces of 6' foot chain and 2 turnbuckles. I wrapped the chain around the axle housing and fixed the 2 ends to the shackle. I tightened a turn buckle so the chain would not allow the shackle to travel far enough back to where it would go up against the frame. I drove about 1,200 miles with these chains fastened to the shackles and wrapped around the axle housing. Not once did the shackles "invert". Of course this was only a temporary fix to the main problem. And not to mention it was a very stiff ride.

So, I hope that is a clearer picture. Again, I apologize for no pics. I was too pissed off to take pics.

The easiest fixes would have been to run longer shackles or to move the shackle mounts on the frame so the shackles would sit vertically. But these solutions did not solve the problem of the springs losing 2.5" of lift in 6 weeks.
 
I've been having great luck with my Alcans. Many miles. Trips to BHCC and Katemcy plus many other trails.
Running 4" plus 1" over Daystar shackle. The springs are one inch longer and the longer shackle alows the spring to work longer through the arch.
Down side is that I had to return all 4 springs once because Tom and Charles didn't follow my custom order and the I returned the rears again because they under estimated the pay load. Actually drove the 60 to them so they could see how far off they where.
Everything is fine now.
Really glad I live in state. This would have sucked otherwise.

devo
 
Any with Dakar bad experience .. ? I had from ( maybe 4 or 5 years ) my OMEs .. uff I'm very happy with this suspension.
 
dieselcruiserhead said:
Jim why did you scrap the OME's, did you want less lift?
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Ha Ha!
Not me I wanted to get back UP to the original height I had when I first got my SOA. The OMEs were well broken in when I went SOA. That was over five years ago. And I have wheeled the crap out of my heavily loaded wagon since then. At least a dozen Rubicon trips, for instance.

My OME were sagging over the years. I had lost about 3-inches of lift. Even more when heavily loaded. Otherthan the loss of lift the springs were working great. They had flattened out and my rear shackle angles were bad especially when loaded. Plus, they had been worked very hard many times and I thought it would nice to have some fresh steel under there. Breaking a spring on the trail would suck.
 
Grease Cruiser said:
I am going to go out on a limb here and I know I will be blasted but.....Alcans suck. Stay very far away, very far.

Here is my situation: I bought a set of 4 4" SUA springs from Alcan. I thought I would support a somewhat local business (I live about 100 miles from them) and I had heard good things about them.

I installed the springs and I had to have absolutely postively 4" of lift. I have a Cummins 4BT in my FJ60 and I needed the oil pan clearance.

When installed, the springs rode great and they looked good too. But after 6 weeks of just regular driving I had problems. I did not even wheel the thing. The springs lost 2.5" of lift and this caused the shackles to invert every time I hit a bump in the road or even when I turned a corner. I had to get out, lift the body of the vehicle so the shackles would come off the frame. Oh, and I have a nice little dent in my oil pan now where it hit the top of the axle housing.
So, I contacted Alcan Spring and first talked to Charles. He claimed that I needed to run a longer shackle. Well that is fine and would fix the shackle inversion problem, but i did not want to run longer shackles. And what about the springs losing 2.5" in 6 weeks.
he claimed that I did not order the springs strong enough for the extra weight of the diesel motor. I told him to find the job order and that I specifically ordered the springs for a heavy duty application. After searching for the job order, he admiited that springs were ordered for a heavy duty application.
He then told me that all lift kit springs have to run longer shackles. Bull s***!!! Even if this is true, it was not in their directions and no mention of it anywhere. Also I wanted a 4" lift not a 5" which a longer shackle would give me.
He started to get very perturbed with me because I was calling BS on his s*** ass springs. So, I asked for my money back. He said that this is not their policy.
So, I called back and talked to the owner, Tom. He also told me that I should run longer shackles. Sure, but this does not explain why his springs lost 2.5" of lift in 6 weeks. He told me to remove the springs and he would make them right by adding an add-a-leaf. What the F@#K!! I don't want no freaking add-a-leaf to stiffen up the suspension. I told him I want new springs all around because of their screw up or to return my money.
After a bit of yelling and screaming, he agreed to return my money. But then when the springs were returned, he wanted to charge a 25% restocking fee!!! BS Buddy!!. Again after some yelling, he gave the money back.

So,,,,,,,Now I am sprung over and HAPPY as can be! Alcan is a s*** Business and I warn you to stay away, very far away.

Also, can you tell that I am still a little perturbed by the situation. I hope no-one is buying a 2" lift for a 60 because I bet you get my old springs. I would not put it past them. Fawkers!

Go ahead, let the S#$T fly:
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that sucks balls, how is the 4bt running? that is one bad ass setup you have on the 60. did you use the stock springs for the spring over?
 
This is very interesting... I won a $400 gift certificate from Alcan at Rubithon.

I have a feeling that Alcan doesn't do three things that would make their springs NOT sag....

1. Use a Grade 9 or 10 spring steel. American protectionist steel policy prevent niexpensive access to higher grade steels from forign markets. Ask Alcan what grade of spring steel they are using.
2. Shoot peening. This process reduces stress in the steel and makes it highly durable for a long long time.
3. Scraging the springs. This process pushes the spring through it's full range of motion, and effectively induces that sag in the factory that you otherwise get with their springs in a few weeks after installation. The result is that when you install the springs... THAT is the height, not 2" less after two or three weeks.

Anyway, I cannot decide what to do. I do need some leaves for my S/O BJ74, but it might be cheaper to do a multilink suspension.

If someone wanted to offer me a few hundred bucks for my $400 Alcan certificate, I would consider such a trade.

Peter Straub
 
Hey Pete, any pics of Tippy in the sluce box? Or anywhere else on the "Con"?

Or the 74 if you took her.

TB
 
beaufort-fj60 said:
that sucks balls, how is the 4bt running? that is one bad ass setup you have on the 60. did you use the stock springs for the spring over?
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Thanks for the compliment. Yes the 4BT is running great. Lots of power and absolutely love the fuel economy. The only problem is that I am not running hot enough. The top radiator hose says about 165 which is not hot enough for my veggie oil conversion. I got a 195 degree thermostat today so maybe that will do the trick.

Yep ,went with my factory springs for the SOA. I am a little raked in the back due to the extra weight I have up front. With the extra weight of the motor and the bull bar, the front sits a little lower. But, I like it like that. With my auxiliary tank and my extra gear, it should sit level.
 
Thanks for the pics. Did you have a good time? I say Pismo James's truck in there too. I just love the Con. Not the toughest trail out there, but sure is fun.
 
Great Pic's of TippyR going up Big Sluice!

Back on topic, you can see my new Alcan's flexing with my expensive MAF (4plus) shackles... I wonder it my old springs would have kept that tire on the ground?

P1010263.sized.jpg
 
Thought I would add my $.02

I have a 3" Alcan lift on my 40 and it's terrific! Again, perhaps anything over 4" is more tricky - that's a common theme with ALL spring makers and lift designs. You can find people who are unhappy with any kit if you ask around enough. Bottom line, find what you feel comfortable with and what you are able to work with. Things that Alcan does RIGHT:
Smaller company, local in Colorado, you call and talk to the guys who are involved in your springs. They also try (and I do say 'try') to make the springs custom for you - most others are just made long before you order.

Any of this make a difference? Maybe not, but for me it did. I've been totally happy and satisfied with the springs, the service and the quality. I'm sorry other's have not had similar relations. By my money and research, Alcan does right by me.

FWIW...

Kevin
77 FJ40 2F
 
Kevin,
Do you live around Aspen, Colorado? I live in Carbondale. Welcome to the Mud Board. Good to see fellow Cruiserheads around the Roaring Fork Valley. If you see a SOA FJ60 that is loud and rattly emitting black smoke that smells like french fires or fish, that's me! Later.
 
I have been thinking about alcans for my SOA 60 since I've worn out & "S'd" my second set of beefed up stock springs (3- extra leaves ea.) but after reading pismo jim's post I think I'll try another route. maybe Rancho waggy's or some stock 1ton ford springs or something. if anyone has had success with a set of springs SOA other than stock that can take some abuse let me know!
 
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