I'm wiring my garage and want to know what guage wire and circuit breaker I should use. Its a 110 Hobart Mig Welder. I want something that won't trip the breaker...Ideas?
Electric Circuit Question
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Look in the manual for the welder - it stipulates what size breaker to use. Don't go too overboard or it defeats the purpose. Then size the wire accordingly.
Well two things here, the gauge of wire goes with the breaker...doesn't matter what you're plugging into it. You could ofcourse use a lower breaker on heavier wire, just to be more safe, but nobody does that.
If it's a normal 110-volt welder then it will run on a normal house-hold outlet. However, most welders can pull up to 20 amps, and if you look closely house outlets are not rated for that. They are rated for 15 amps out of the outlet and 20 amps pass-through. The pass-through means the screws on the side and such can handle 20 amps going through them but that actual outlet can't handle 20 amps out it's own little holes. The only outlets that are rated for 20amps out their own holes will have a odd hole that can either accept a normal plug or one with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. The reason for that is if a device actually draws 20 amps, then it's sposeto have that turned plug so you can't plug it into a normal outlet, it would only be able to be plugged into a '20-amp' outlet. (I think welders don't have this turned plug because they don't always pull 20 amps...usually they draw less, so they don't have to have the wierd plug which would be a pain to deal with)
For houses it's normal to have a 20-amp circuit feed outlets and and 15-amp circuit to feed lights (some have 20-amps on both, some have 15-amps on both, depends on how cheap your home builder was). For a 20-amp circuit you have to use a minimum of 12-gauge solid copper wire. For a 15-amp circuit you have to use a minimum of 14-gauge solid copper wire. I say 'minimum' because you can go thicker, infact lots of people do, if you are running the wire a long way, might want to go thicker. The 12/14 gauge wire numbers are typically good to 100 feet from the breaker panel, so if you are going to be further than that away (remember extention cords also), probably should use 10-gauge solid wire, which is harder to deal with, more expensive, etc. If you've never done any wiring before I would suggest some books or just reading online, very simple, just work slow and question yourself if this is really correct. There are ofcourse rules and codes you have to follow but for what you're doing that's very easy to understand, if you are running wires in a conduit then you can use the THHN (I think that's them), the single wires, they take up less space in the conduit and so on. However to use those they have to be in a conduit from the outlet to the breaker box, no open accessable areas. Normally you'd use romex style wire, 2 or 3 conductor wires with a bare ground all in a sheath. You probably should know something about phases also, since if you are running garage stuff you can get away with less wires if you have to circuits on either side of the incoming 220volt line...stuff like that, or if you are wiring a 220volt outlet (which is actually 230 volt, and 110 is actually 115-118 normally, but nobody cares)
As for tripping a breaker, the best you can do (safely) is to just make your garage outlets the only thing on a new 20-amp breaker, so when you are using those outlets you know that nothing else is pulling power on that circuit. You can still trip a 20-amp breaker with a 110-volt welder though, I do it all the time with mine, on a dedicated 20-amp circuit, but that's the fun of a 110-volt welder
They do have such things as a 30-amp 110-volt circuit, but that is not a 'general purpose' outlet, which means you would have to have a breaker for that single outlet (only one, not even a pair), and I'm not sure if you can even get them with a normal plug, I don't think so, they are the round 4-prong things and all that. Also that would require 10-gauge wire, etc...
You should also put in GFCI (Ground fault circuit interrupt) outlets in, in any place where they have electrical codes they are mandated in any place near water or work area, etc. I have 20-amp (side plug compatible) GFCI outlets that I just put in, even in insturial gray Those are very good outlets, and can and do save lives, and will not hamper any electrical device at all, no reason at all to not put them in, unless you want a house that won't pass inspection or like to have something dangerous...
Hopefully your breaker box has a master breaker that shuts everything down, not all houses do, my dad's doesn't have any main disconnect (except the actual power meter ofcourse, but you can't pull that yourself), so running new breakers is something to be done VERY carefully...trick is to put the wire on the breaker before it goes into the panel, then you can just pop it in and then turn it on...instead of fishing around with a screwdriver in a live panel...
If you want any more info, feel free to PM me, I'm not a licensed electrican or anything, but have done enough electrical work to go crazy...
Good Luck,
Mark Brodis
If it's a normal 110-volt welder then it will run on a normal house-hold outlet. However, most welders can pull up to 20 amps, and if you look closely house outlets are not rated for that. They are rated for 15 amps out of the outlet and 20 amps pass-through. The pass-through means the screws on the side and such can handle 20 amps going through them but that actual outlet can't handle 20 amps out it's own little holes. The only outlets that are rated for 20amps out their own holes will have a odd hole that can either accept a normal plug or one with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. The reason for that is if a device actually draws 20 amps, then it's sposeto have that turned plug so you can't plug it into a normal outlet, it would only be able to be plugged into a '20-amp' outlet. (I think welders don't have this turned plug because they don't always pull 20 amps...usually they draw less, so they don't have to have the wierd plug which would be a pain to deal with)
For houses it's normal to have a 20-amp circuit feed outlets and and 15-amp circuit to feed lights (some have 20-amps on both, some have 15-amps on both, depends on how cheap your home builder was). For a 20-amp circuit you have to use a minimum of 12-gauge solid copper wire. For a 15-amp circuit you have to use a minimum of 14-gauge solid copper wire. I say 'minimum' because you can go thicker, infact lots of people do, if you are running the wire a long way, might want to go thicker. The 12/14 gauge wire numbers are typically good to 100 feet from the breaker panel, so if you are going to be further than that away (remember extention cords also), probably should use 10-gauge solid wire, which is harder to deal with, more expensive, etc. If you've never done any wiring before I would suggest some books or just reading online, very simple, just work slow and question yourself if this is really correct. There are ofcourse rules and codes you have to follow but for what you're doing that's very easy to understand, if you are running wires in a conduit then you can use the THHN (I think that's them), the single wires, they take up less space in the conduit and so on. However to use those they have to be in a conduit from the outlet to the breaker box, no open accessable areas. Normally you'd use romex style wire, 2 or 3 conductor wires with a bare ground all in a sheath. You probably should know something about phases also, since if you are running garage stuff you can get away with less wires if you have to circuits on either side of the incoming 220volt line...stuff like that, or if you are wiring a 220volt outlet (which is actually 230 volt, and 110 is actually 115-118 normally, but nobody cares)
As for tripping a breaker, the best you can do (safely) is to just make your garage outlets the only thing on a new 20-amp breaker, so when you are using those outlets you know that nothing else is pulling power on that circuit. You can still trip a 20-amp breaker with a 110-volt welder though, I do it all the time with mine, on a dedicated 20-amp circuit, but that's the fun of a 110-volt welder
They do have such things as a 30-amp 110-volt circuit, but that is not a 'general purpose' outlet, which means you would have to have a breaker for that single outlet (only one, not even a pair), and I'm not sure if you can even get them with a normal plug, I don't think so, they are the round 4-prong things and all that. Also that would require 10-gauge wire, etc...
You should also put in GFCI (Ground fault circuit interrupt) outlets in, in any place where they have electrical codes they are mandated in any place near water or work area, etc. I have 20-amp (side plug compatible) GFCI outlets that I just put in, even in insturial gray
Those are very good outlets, and can and do save lives, and will not hamper any electrical device at all, no reason at all to not put them in, unless you want a house that won't pass inspection or like to have something dangerous...Hopefully your breaker box has a master breaker that shuts everything down, not all houses do, my dad's doesn't have any main disconnect (except the actual power meter ofcourse, but you can't pull that yourself), so running new breakers is something to be done VERY carefully...trick is to put the wire on the breaker before it goes into the panel, then you can just pop it in and then turn it on...instead of fishing around with a screwdriver in a live panel...
If you want any more info, feel free to PM me, I'm not a licensed electrican or anything, but have done enough electrical work to go crazy...
Good Luck,
Mark Brodis
HOLY COW, nice writeup, agree with most of it.
My perferences, are 20 amp breaker, 12 gauge wire, 20amp rated outlet (most are not). 30 amp stuff is harder to come by and most standard plug in outlets are not rated for 30 amps. Distance is something to consider, but damn if your at 100+ ft in the garage you have too large a garage, well maybe not, got any place for me? lol I have had some trouble with GFI outlets in garages and running different items off of them, this also might be code dependent. Here water source, and garage outlets are covered under a GFI, but these houses only have one or two outlets, as no one works in these garages. I do extra work remodel a few garages and do not run any GFI unless the outlet is used for christmas lighting outside or other seasonal items that see weather.
A large frig really needs its own outlet, 20amp, this is very common mistake about trying to run anything and having the large frig on the same circuit. 20 amp shared circuit with the welder is fine as long as there is nothing running on the circuit at the same time as the welder.
licensed electrican here.
My perferences, are 20 amp breaker, 12 gauge wire, 20amp rated outlet (most are not). 30 amp stuff is harder to come by and most standard plug in outlets are not rated for 30 amps. Distance is something to consider, but damn if your at 100+ ft in the garage you have too large a garage, well maybe not, got any place for me? lol I have had some trouble with GFI outlets in garages and running different items off of them, this also might be code dependent. Here water source, and garage outlets are covered under a GFI, but these houses only have one or two outlets, as no one works in these garages. I do extra work remodel a few garages and do not run any GFI unless the outlet is used for christmas lighting outside or other seasonal items that see weather.
A large frig really needs its own outlet, 20amp, this is very common mistake about trying to run anything and having the large frig on the same circuit. 20 amp shared circuit with the welder is fine as long as there is nothing running on the circuit at the same time as the welder.
licensed electrican here.
The only devices I've had problems with as far as on GFCI outlets (tripping as soon as the device was turned on, etc) was a plasma cutter and a old computer. The plasma cutter I figured was just because of the large jolt of electricity when it fires up the torch, it wouldn't take much current to flow from the torch to the work which is then grounded through a grounding clamp and I'm guessing back to chassis ground, which would cause a tripped GFCI...the other I just ran into, a friend's old computer, always just used it on a normal outlet, was setting it up on a kitchen outlet (don't ask! ), and it kept tripping the outlet, apparently inside the power supply atleast some current is just going to chassis ground and immediately tripping the outlet...good to know, maybe I should test all my stuff on a GFCI outlet at some point, just to learn things like that.
As for other things on a GFCI I've had no trouble at all, welders, grinders, saws, etc...I agree if your garage needs 100' of wire, you need to allow other Cruiser guys to work on vehicles there..
Also as a side note, if you are wiring your garage for something like a air compressor, think about a 220-volt compressor, I just put one in for my dad like this, the advantage with a 220 is it draws much less current, like 17 amps, which means you can run it on normal 12-gauge wire (20Amp circuit), it's just how it's connected at both ends (and possibly the color of the wire, so as to not confuse others) that's important, but very cool to have the power of a good 220volt device without heavy bulky wiring...we also ran a 50-amp 220v circuit, 6-gauge stranged (they don't typically make solid that thick), man did that suck to work with!
Good Luck...and don't listen to me, listed to that other licensed dude..infact I may have some questions for him..
), and it kept tripping the outlet, apparently inside the power supply atleast some current is just going to chassis ground and immediately tripping the outlet...good to know, maybe I should test all my stuff on a GFCI outlet at some point, just to learn things like that.As for other things on a GFCI I've had no trouble at all, welders, grinders, saws, etc...I agree if your garage needs 100' of wire, you need to allow other Cruiser guys to work on vehicles there..
Also as a side note, if you are wiring your garage for something like a air compressor, think about a 220-volt compressor, I just put one in for my dad like this, the advantage with a 220 is it draws much less current, like 17 amps, which means you can run it on normal 12-gauge wire (20Amp circuit), it's just how it's connected at both ends (and possibly the color of the wire, so as to not confuse others) that's important, but very cool to have the power of a good 220volt device without heavy bulky wiring...we also ran a 50-amp 220v circuit, 6-gauge stranged (they don't typically make solid that thick), man did that suck to work with!
Good Luck...and don't listen to me, listed to that other licensed dude..infact I may have some questions for him..
READ THE MANUAL for power requirements first!
Some 110-volt welder’s manuals recommend to only use high setting with a 25amp branch circuit. In that case you need #10 wire on a 25amp single pole breaker (25amp SP breaker difficult to find – likely a order item from your local electrical wholesale house). Personally I would have no problem using a 30amp SP in that case. It is not required to be GFIC protected if it’s in a garage per NEC (National Electric Code). NEC 210-8 (I think) has a couple of exception. If outlet in not readily accessible and if the outlet has a defined purpose (like a welder, frig, freezer, ect.) no GFCI protection is required. Be aware that your local codes can overwrite NEC, so check with them.
When an electrical circuit wiring is pushed to its limit voltage is decreased and amperage increases resulting in your welder not working to its peak output and eventually a tripped breaker. For a 110-volt welder requiring a 20amp circuit I would still run #10 wire on a 20amp breaker in multiple locations in your garage eliminating all needs for an extension cord. Use 20amp commercial or spec grade single outlets. Then you will be able to use your welder to its maximum capacity.
Good luck and make sure you turn the power off before you attempt any electrical work.
Phil
Some 110-volt welder’s manuals recommend to only use high setting with a 25amp branch circuit. In that case you need #10 wire on a 25amp single pole breaker (25amp SP breaker difficult to find – likely a order item from your local electrical wholesale house). Personally I would have no problem using a 30amp SP in that case. It is not required to be GFIC protected if it’s in a garage per NEC (National Electric Code). NEC 210-8 (I think) has a couple of exception. If outlet in not readily accessible and if the outlet has a defined purpose (like a welder, frig, freezer, ect.) no GFCI protection is required. Be aware that your local codes can overwrite NEC, so check with them.
When an electrical circuit wiring is pushed to its limit voltage is decreased and amperage increases resulting in your welder not working to its peak output and eventually a tripped breaker. For a 110-volt welder requiring a 20amp circuit I would still run #10 wire on a 20amp breaker in multiple locations in your garage eliminating all needs for an extension cord. Use 20amp commercial or spec grade single outlets. Then you will be able to use your welder to its maximum capacity.
Good luck and make sure you turn the power off before you attempt any electrical work.
Phil
[quote author=mabrodis link=board=14;threadid=15669;start=msg150095#msg150095 date=1083644071]
Also as a side note, if you are wiring your garage for something like a air compressor, think about a 220-volt compressor, I just put one in for my dad like this, the advantage with a 220 is it draws much less current, like 17 amps, which means you can run it on normal 12-gauge wire (20Amp circuit), it's just how it's connected at both ends (and possibly the color of the wire, so as to not confuse others) that's important, but very cool to have the power of a good 220volt device without heavy bulky wiring...we also ran a 50-amp 220v circuit, 6-gauge stranged (they don't typically make solid that thick), man did that suck to work with!
Good Luck...and don't listen to me, listed to that other licensed dude..infact I may have some questions for him..
[/quote]
NEC 430 states all motors will have wiring and current protection of 125% of its nameplate rating. #12 on a 17amp motor is under rated. The reason for the 125% is that when a motor starts especially under load the start up amperage can be 2 times it’s RLA (running load amps). This only takes place during the first few seconds of start up and drops back down to normal RLA.
Phil
Also as a side note, if you are wiring your garage for something like a air compressor, think about a 220-volt compressor, I just put one in for my dad like this, the advantage with a 220 is it draws much less current, like 17 amps, which means you can run it on normal 12-gauge wire (20Amp circuit), it's just how it's connected at both ends (and possibly the color of the wire, so as to not confuse others) that's important, but very cool to have the power of a good 220volt device without heavy bulky wiring...we also ran a 50-amp 220v circuit, 6-gauge stranged (they don't typically make solid that thick), man did that suck to work with!
Good Luck...and don't listen to me, listed to that other licensed dude..infact I may have some questions for him..
[/quote]
NEC 430 states all motors will have wiring and current protection of 125% of its nameplate rating. #12 on a 17amp motor is under rated. The reason for the 125% is that when a motor starts especially under load the start up amperage can be 2 times it’s RLA (running load amps). This only takes place during the first few seconds of start up and drops back down to normal RLA.
Phil
phil, i understand running many outlets through the garage for the welder, me just one outlet then, i just spend the money on a large extension cord that way the welder can move where ever i need it, even anywhere at my buddies when he needs something welded. But you mention running many outlets at 20 amps on #10, if future increase in the breaker size i am all for it, but #12 is enough for 20 amps and is alot cheaper.
the nameplate on the motor vs the plate on the air compressor can and do vary alot. Little gray area here.
50 amp, nice large mig, or arc, lol
Questions? ask away.
the nameplate on the motor vs the plate on the air compressor can and do vary alot. Little gray area here.
50 amp, nice large mig, or arc, lol
Questions? ask away.
#12 is enough for 20 amps and is alot cheaper
No problem just dont run it 100'
the nameplate on the motor vs the plate on the air compressor can and do vary alot. Little gray area here.
Yes you are right a grey area for sure. It gets back to the read the manual, it will tell you what to provide for power to make there stuff work the best.
Phil
No problem just dont run it 100'
the nameplate on the motor vs the plate on the air compressor can and do vary alot. Little gray area here.
Yes you are right a grey area for sure. It gets back to the read the manual, it will tell you what to provide for power to make there stuff work the best.
Phil
- Thread starter
- #10
Wow thanks for all the great replies. I will post some photos of my handy work 
If you have to run a new circuit into your garage I would run a 100 amp 220vac circuit in and then put in a small sub panel in and split it in to several, 20 amp 110vac circuits. Than in the future you will have the 220 for compressors and larger welders. the extra cost will save a lot of frustration in the future.
[quote author=LandCruiserPhil link=board=14;threadid=15669;start=msg150130#msg150130 date=1083648248]
NEC 430 states all motors will have wiring and current protection of 125% of its nameplate rating. #12 on a 17amp motor is under rated. The reason for the 125% is that when a motor starts especially under load the start up amperage can be 2 times it’s RLA (running load amps). This only takes place during the first few seconds of start up and drops back down to normal RLA.
[/quote]
That's odd, I guess that is the actual code, but I don't know anyone who would follow that. If a motor can run on a 20Amp circuit then most would run it on a 20Amp circuit. You are correct that the starting current of a motor can be WAY higher than it's normal running current. However, I personally would (maybe incorrectly) not worry about it. I would figure that if the current gets to high it will trip the breaker. Which is true, it will trip the breaker and I know of situations where a breaker had enough current for a normal running load but not for startup condition and provisions had to be made just for the special case of starting a motor. I don't know how fast a breaker actually trips but I would expect any actual dangerous situation to be handled by the breaker. I know all our codes and such have a healthy safety margin built-in. I was on a church missionary trip to Peru, Iquitos Pero to be specific, we had to setup this auditorium each night for wiring and speakers etc. Couldn't leave anything from night to night (not exactly a 'safe' area), it was nuts, there they have 220volt, all wires were just twisted together, most with no electrical tape or anything, the entire light system for the large (~4000 person) facility was by a few big switches with bare wires coming into them, they would lift wires off and on to turn lights on and off, all sparking the whole time!! The stuff we ran was not as bad but almost, all our stuff had to handle 220, which most electronics/computers do, extention cords cut apart...what we have in this country kicks-arse compared to what those guys are useto dealing with!
The power to these people's living area (couldn't call it a house) was just loose wires twisted together by hand running from housetop to housetop...nobody ever had outlets, no switches, none of that stuff, just connect it when you want to use it and pull the twist apart when you don't.
Thanks for posting the NEC though, good stuff to know.
NEC 430 states all motors will have wiring and current protection of 125% of its nameplate rating. #12 on a 17amp motor is under rated. The reason for the 125% is that when a motor starts especially under load the start up amperage can be 2 times it’s RLA (running load amps). This only takes place during the first few seconds of start up and drops back down to normal RLA.
[/quote]
That's odd, I guess that is the actual code, but I don't know anyone who would follow that. If a motor can run on a 20Amp circuit then most would run it on a 20Amp circuit. You are correct that the starting current of a motor can be WAY higher than it's normal running current. However, I personally would (maybe incorrectly) not worry about it. I would figure that if the current gets to high it will trip the breaker. Which is true, it will trip the breaker and I know of situations where a breaker had enough current for a normal running load but not for startup condition and provisions had to be made just for the special case of starting a motor. I don't know how fast a breaker actually trips but I would expect any actual dangerous situation to be handled by the breaker. I know all our codes and such have a healthy safety margin built-in. I was on a church missionary trip to Peru, Iquitos Pero to be specific, we had to setup this auditorium each night for wiring and speakers etc. Couldn't leave anything from night to night (not exactly a 'safe' area), it was nuts, there they have 220volt, all wires were just twisted together, most with no electrical tape or anything, the entire light system for the large (~4000 person) facility was by a few big switches with bare wires coming into them, they would lift wires off and on to turn lights on and off, all sparking the whole time!! The stuff we ran was not as bad but almost, all our stuff had to handle 220, which most electronics/computers do, extention cords cut apart...what we have in this country kicks-arse compared to what those guys are useto dealing with!
The power to these people's living area (couldn't call it a house) was just loose wires twisted together by hand running from housetop to housetop...nobody ever had outlets, no switches, none of that stuff, just connect it when you want to use it and pull the twist apart when you don't.
Thanks for posting the NEC though, good stuff to know.
Just a quick note about extension cords and high load current equipment, ie welders.
Keep the cord to the minimum lenght required. choose as large as posible cable cross sectional area, and (this is real important !) NEVER operate the equipment with the extension cord wound up, or wound around anything metalic (unless you enjoy vists from the Fire department !). Breakers should be high inductive load rated. Also if you have a problem with "residue earth leakage" breakers, try to isolate the job you are welding from any objects that might a path back to ground, i.e metal workshop benches, metal cased power tools etc.
Rob
Keep the cord to the minimum lenght required. choose as large as posible cable cross sectional area, and (this is real important !) NEVER operate the equipment with the extension cord wound up, or wound around anything metalic (unless you enjoy vists from the Fire department !). Breakers should be high inductive load rated. Also if you have a problem with "residue earth leakage" breakers, try to isolate the job you are welding from any objects that might a path back to ground, i.e metal workshop benches, metal cased power tools etc.
Rob
[quote author=robbed666 link=board=14;threadid=15669;start=msg153218#msg153218 date=1084115822]
Breakers should be high inductive load rated. Also if you have a problem with "residue earth leakage" breakers, try to isolate the job you are welding from any objects that might a path back to ground, i.e metal workshop benches, metal cased power tools etc.
Rob
[/quote]
Rob Welcome to the forum.
I'm interested in what you are saying but I have no idea what it is you are saying. Can you break it down
Phil
Breakers should be high inductive load rated. Also if you have a problem with "residue earth leakage" breakers, try to isolate the job you are welding from any objects that might a path back to ground, i.e metal workshop benches, metal cased power tools etc.
Rob
[/quote]
Rob Welcome to the forum.
I'm interested in what you are saying but I have no idea what it is you are saying. Can you break it down
Phil
Hi,
Circuit Breakers:
Over here in England circuit breakers are rated by 3 (typically) "tripping" ratings.
These are B, C & D.
B: Typically used for low inductive/capacitive loads i.e. Lighting and heating circuits where the load is predominately resistive. No big switch on surge. They will take 3-5 times their rated current for a second or two.
C: Used for medium inductive/capacitive loads i.e. lightly loaded electric motors, domestic appliances vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, freezers etc. They will take 5- 10
times their rated current for a second or two.
D: Used for high inductive/capacitive loads i.e. motors under heavy load, WELDERS, compressors, slow starting machinery. They will take 10-20 times their rated current for 2- 3 seconds
All of the above is a generalization, but should give the idea.
Nuisance tripping of “Residual current circuit breakers” (RCCD’s).
Sometimes when you go to start welding with your Arc, (MMA, SMA, MIG, or TIG) welder. The trip goes, but it’s not the power breaker, it’s the RCCD, Earth/Ground leakage breaker that’s cut the power. This can be caused by defective equipment, or by a small current (30-100mA typically) sensed in the Earth/Ground wire. You can cause this tripping by the way you connect the welder’s output leads.
Example: In your workshop you have a metal bench. You connect the return lead of
Your MIG set to the metal bench leg. You have a steel box you are welding on the bench. Touching the box is metal cased electric drill. The bench is also connected the electrical supply protective earth. Due to grinding dust, debris, etc the metal box is not making good electrical contact with the bench surface, but is in good electrical contact with the drill case. As soon as you pull that MIG gun trigger the welding current will take the path of least resistance. This will be through the drill casing, down the drill earth wire in its power cord, and back to the breaker/RCCD panel tripping the RCCD.
Without the RCCD you would have fried the power cord of the drill and protective earth wiring all the way back to the panel. The path is not always as obvious as the simple scenario as above, but the effect is the same.
Most RCCD also rely on monitoring the current flowing on the live (Hot) wire, and the neutral (return) wire. As the current flowing in the live and the neutral must be equal, any imbalance must be a “leakage” to another potential (Normally ground).
Above is only one way that Nuisance tripping can occur, there also is problems with “induced” currents, and HF (TIG sets) causing problems.
HTH
Rob
Circuit Breakers:
Over here in England circuit breakers are rated by 3 (typically) "tripping" ratings.
These are B, C & D.
B: Typically used for low inductive/capacitive loads i.e. Lighting and heating circuits where the load is predominately resistive. No big switch on surge. They will take 3-5 times their rated current for a second or two.
C: Used for medium inductive/capacitive loads i.e. lightly loaded electric motors, domestic appliances vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, freezers etc. They will take 5- 10
times their rated current for a second or two.
D: Used for high inductive/capacitive loads i.e. motors under heavy load, WELDERS, compressors, slow starting machinery. They will take 10-20 times their rated current for 2- 3 seconds
All of the above is a generalization, but should give the idea.
Nuisance tripping of “Residual current circuit breakers” (RCCD’s).
Sometimes when you go to start welding with your Arc, (MMA, SMA, MIG, or TIG) welder. The trip goes, but it’s not the power breaker, it’s the RCCD, Earth/Ground leakage breaker that’s cut the power. This can be caused by defective equipment, or by a small current (30-100mA typically) sensed in the Earth/Ground wire. You can cause this tripping by the way you connect the welder’s output leads.
Example: In your workshop you have a metal bench. You connect the return lead of
Your MIG set to the metal bench leg. You have a steel box you are welding on the bench. Touching the box is metal cased electric drill. The bench is also connected the electrical supply protective earth. Due to grinding dust, debris, etc the metal box is not making good electrical contact with the bench surface, but is in good electrical contact with the drill case. As soon as you pull that MIG gun trigger the welding current will take the path of least resistance. This will be through the drill casing, down the drill earth wire in its power cord, and back to the breaker/RCCD panel tripping the RCCD.
Without the RCCD you would have fried the power cord of the drill and protective earth wiring all the way back to the panel. The path is not always as obvious as the simple scenario as above, but the effect is the same.
Most RCCD also rely on monitoring the current flowing on the live (Hot) wire, and the neutral (return) wire. As the current flowing in the live and the neutral must be equal, any imbalance must be a “leakage” to another potential (Normally ground).
Above is only one way that Nuisance tripping can occur, there also is problems with “induced” currents, and HF (TIG sets) causing problems.
HTH
Rob
wow, and interesting.
your RCCD sounds close to what we have called a arc fault breaker, but there is no sure way to accuratly test a afb and my state has thrown out the use of them. but kind of like a GFI as it can also be located outside the breaker.
We have a slight variation on trip ratings between manufactures, and in your commercial systems do you see this more important. Only other time is that a circuit branch breaker have a lower rating them a main feed rating so that the branch breaker trips before the main feed, most of the time just the higher amp rating of the breaker it also has a higher trip rating.
not 100% sure, but standard plugs are 120v and standard home panels are 220v all only single phase. all other voltages in single and 3 phase is not in residental areas.
from what i understand in england 240v is standard and 3 phase power can be found in homes? Let me know here something i always wondered about, cause all the cool/large welders come standard and can be powered by what you guys have in your homes?
your RCCD sounds close to what we have called a arc fault breaker, but there is no sure way to accuratly test a afb and my state has thrown out the use of them. but kind of like a GFI as it can also be located outside the breaker.
We have a slight variation on trip ratings between manufactures, and in your commercial systems do you see this more important. Only other time is that a circuit branch breaker have a lower rating them a main feed rating so that the branch breaker trips before the main feed, most of the time just the higher amp rating of the breaker it also has a higher trip rating.
not 100% sure, but standard plugs are 120v and standard home panels are 220v all only single phase. all other voltages in single and 3 phase is not in residental areas.
from what i understand in england 240v is standard and 3 phase power can be found in homes? Let me know here something i always wondered about, cause all the cool/large welders come standard and can be powered by what you guys have in your homes?
Hi,
240 Volts 50HZ sinlgle phase is the standard domestic supply in England. Three phase is not normally used/available in domestic premises. Interesting fact is that to achieve phase load balance. Alternate houses in a street are typically connected each phase in rotation. So if you connected into each of your neigbours supply and your own, you would have a 415v 3 phase supply. Typical outlets have a 13 Amp current rating, whichs give a maximum 3.12 KVA power capability, but dedicated 30 or 45 Amp spurs are used for if higher power is required, (up to 10.8 KVA). 110 Volt supplies are for industrial power tools & equipment. Normally a isolating step down transformer with CTE ("Centre Tap to Earth")is used. This is done so the maximum potenetial above ground that you can be exposed to is 55 Volts.
Rob
240 Volts 50HZ sinlgle phase is the standard domestic supply in England. Three phase is not normally used/available in domestic premises. Interesting fact is that to achieve phase load balance. Alternate houses in a street are typically connected each phase in rotation. So if you connected into each of your neigbours supply and your own, you would have a 415v 3 phase supply. Typical outlets have a 13 Amp current rating, whichs give a maximum 3.12 KVA power capability, but dedicated 30 or 45 Amp spurs are used for if higher power is required, (up to 10.8 KVA). 110 Volt supplies are for industrial power tools & equipment. Normally a isolating step down transformer with CTE ("Centre Tap to Earth")is used. This is done so the maximum potenetial above ground that you can be exposed to is 55 Volts.
Rob
