Disappointed

[MaddBaggins]

So last weekend was the annual Tucson Rough Riders Trail Dust Days 4x4 meet/run. My jeeper buddy always attends and as usual was looking forward to hitting a trail called 7 Sisters in the Florence Area. I guess it’s a waterfall winch-fest type of trail. Well, the group gets there and finds FS officials at the trail head letting them all know that it is not a designated route and anyone attempting to run it will be cited. So the whole group is pissed off and drives back to Tucson and run C-gap.
I see them Monday and hear all the bitchin and moanin and when they tell me why, I said well if it isn’t a designated road/trail you’re not supposed to be there, whats the problem. Everyone looked incredulous, jaws open. I guess I’m an idiot for trying to stick to designated routes. Last time I ran Chimney rock trail with him, Goodtimes was with us, and I was a bit disappointed when my buddy ran off the designated route to hit some rocks. Albeit there are roads crisscrossing all over those rocks, none of them are THE route. I felt embarrassed when Goodtimes and I were talking about staying on trails and doing the right thing and we see my buddy off the trail. I said something to him later and I guess he brushed me off since he knows more about wheeling than I ever will and he knows the roads.
I guess I just wanted to gripe some. I seem to find it difficult to find wheeling partners down here, except my jeeper/chevy friends and they don’t seem to have the same level of respect for the rules that I try to hold.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

I have some Jeep bud's that are awesome. I also have some like you speak of. These guys are wild and tear up almost anything.

Hey...you need to add the J-spring line into your sig soon.

 

[MaddBaggins]

Hey...you need to add the J-spring line into your sig soon.

Not for a while yet. Once I drop those in, I'm gonna have to figure out what to do for castor and wether or not I need DC shafts.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Not for a while yet. Once I drop those in, I'm gonna have to figure out what to do for castor and wether or not I need DC shafts.

You won't believe how my Lexus turned out. Look: https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?p=1464590#post1464590

 

[Tools R Us]

Unfortunately we saw some results of that attitude in Moab, places where people short cut trails, drove, biked, etc. across crust, tore up vegetation, etc. for no good reason. It's that mind set that makes it difficult on the rest of us that want to continue to tour the back country in the future. A couple of us were almost hit by motorcycles well off the trail on Spike. minus the

I am proud to say that the Cruiser guys that I have wheeled with have a higher standard.

 

[RHINO]

happens here all the time,,,, some w/e warrior types and some groups that should know better.


hey shotts, is the back of that 100 setup different than and 80/450?? any caster shims or anything for it?? i'm just wondering if you have a couple degrees too many for those vibes, what about the u-joints? check'em? maybe they are new or just re-used when the shaft was done? throwin ideas at ya, maybe old ones but what the heck man.

 

[Sean K.]

Whoa there guys....first off, Seven Sisters was purported to be on PRIVATE land. If this has changed, so have the rules. If not, FS has no business telling anyone what they can and can't do there as they are not the property owners.

Second, let's look at the above mentioned Moab example and try and relate it to the trails here in AZ. I have opened a great many trails here personally with the BLM's permission as well as officers in attendance.

I would guess at least *some* of you have been on the Pritchett Canyon trail in Moab. If so, you're probably familiar with the obstacle called "The Rock Pile". From top to bottom, it's probably between 6 and 8 feet tall. That is the original trail. However, there are no signs to mark said obstacle as the actual trail. There are several bypass lines off to the right that go farther up the canyon and are much easier. Now, if you've never been to Pritchett before and don't know the history of the trail, how are you supposed to know that the much more extreme obstacle is the actual line, not the easier (much more sane looking) bypasses with no signs to tell you? Answer: you're not going to. In fact, most vehicles that go down that trail cannot climb the Rock Pile unassisted, so if one were a newbie, he could easily mistake the "proper" or "approved" trail to be the one that's actually doable in a much less heavily modified vehicle.

The above is just ONE example, and there are hundreds here in our own state. My point is simply that if you do not know which path or line is the "original" trail, how are you to make the determination? Further, if no damage occurs from using the braided trail line and it is not marked closed, I see no obligation under current guidelines to bypass it.

My experience in opening trails with the BLM points to the rule "if it's not posted closed, and no harm to the environment ensues from its use, it's open". This rule generally applies to the washes in which we open trails....NOT willy-nilly through the open desert. The reason for this distinction should be obvious. Washes "wash" out and change with each passing rainstorm. There is very little ecological damage from a vehicle running in a dry wash that is predominantly made of rock.

One of the guidelines the BLM used about running over vegetation was: if the tree wasn't bigger around than your thumb, you could cut it down, drive over it, etc......as long as it wasn't a protected species. For example Saguaro cactus cannot be run over regardless of size, nor can it be cut or removed unless it is downed naturally and blocking the path.

Hopefully most of you realize where I'm coming from with this. If you push this agenda too far, you easily wind up closing all of the obstacles worth doing on most of our more moderate AZ trails (like Firehole on Upper Woodpecker, the "waterfall" on Martinez, etc).

2 cents,
Sean

 

[Blues Dawg]

Well stated Sean. I used to work for BLM in New Mexico and wrote land use plans for their land - including vehicular restrictions. With new legislation in the works, I worry/wonder about places like Payette Draw that are not the "designated" FS road. Great trail, but not the "road". Woodpecker, Ajax and the other trails in the Florence Juntion area the same - are we gonna wind up restricted to graded roads because of a mix of over-zealous environmentalists supported by irresponsible enthusiasts?

I have been really impressed with the Toy owners and their sense of responsibility for the trail and environment - we usually come out with more than we carried in. The challenge lies in educating the trail users and environmentalists and policing ourselves (meaning all trail users). This simply speaks to the need for active involvement from the community.

 

[Tools R Us]

Sean, my experience had nothing to do with bypasses or alternate routes. It was motorcycles roosting across crust and vegetation and a heep group going well off of the trail to get around parked or slower vehicles, without even taking the time to ask if they could be moved. There is now an alternate route where the heep group went, there were 5 or 6 of them from Colorado, passed about 6 parked trucks going off of the trail by at least 100'.

I hope your not saying that it's OK to make an alternate route if you don't feel like waiting for parked vehicles to be moved?

 

[Sean K.]

No, I'm not saying that's okay.....Moab and it's "crypto-biotic" crust is a very different place and has different rules. Even if you have to wait b/c people have blocked the trail (EXTREMELY inconsiderate in Moab where there is generally much more room than on AZ's trails) that's no excuse to create your own trail.

I'm referring to quotes like this:

"Last time I ran Chimney rock trail with him, Goodtimes was with us, and I was a bit disappointed when my buddy ran off the designated route to hit some rocks. Albeit there are roads crisscrossing all over those rocks, none of them are THE route."


However, since you brought up Moab, I have to ask a question. Did you do Hell's Revenge? Did you go into ANY "hot tub" (Mickey's, Carwash, or otherwise)? What about the Escalator? If you did.....technically, you were going "off trail" and destroying the little "microbes" that live in the rock/water basins. Personally, I think it's horse**** and I will continue to do those obstacles unless they are posted closed but that is the environmentalist and even some of Utah's BLM stance on the hot tubs.

Sean

 

[MaddBaggins]

Well Sean you obviously missed my point. I'm disapointed in my friends lack of care for where the designated road is. His attitude about what he thinks should be allowed is what I'm talking about. Whatever
Just because others have driven around and made new roads doesn't make those new roads OK.

 

[Sean K.]

And you obviously missed my point.

Why don't you name me a few trails you've run in AZ and then we can try and discuss what's the "designated" route since THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS marking what's designated and what's not. Have you run Upper Woodpecker? What about Martinez Canyon (past the cabins and making the full loop)?

I thought you mentioned you were from Tucson? Is that right? If so, what about 3 feathers? I've run the beginning of that trail once over 5 years ago.......which is the "designated" route there? 5 years ago, there were no signs and I'm certain that at some point, there was only 1 path there. So, which two of those do you wanna close?

You freely admit in the quote that, "..... there are roads crisscrossing all over those rocks....". So, without signs, how is one supposed to KNOW?

Please elaborate.

Sean

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

happens here all the time,,,, some w/e warrior types and some groups that should know better.


hey shotts, is the back of that 100 setup different than and 80/450?? any caster shims or anything for it?? i'm just wondering if you have a couple degrees too many for those vibes, what about the u-joints? check'em? maybe they are new or just re-used when the shaft was done? throwin ideas at ya, maybe old ones but what the heck man.

I'm going to play with the adjustable upper rear arms some more. We'll see. Both shafts are brand new.

 

[MaddBaggins]

My personal philosophy on trails is simple. If there is only one way to go, follow it and don’t make more trails. If there are multiple ways to go, break out a map ,GPS or walk the trail a bit and see if the correct route can be found. At the very least put forth a little effort to try to be right , within reason. Now if the original designated route has become un-used/overgrown/washed out and it is clear that it is no longer in use, then I say stay on the trail that is in use. Less impact that way and I can’t be accused of tearing up the desert. We all know that as the years pass most of these roads/trails we use are not the same as the one printed on the topo. Mother nature usually plays a big part in that. I won’t drive all over creation trying to stay exactly with the map, I’ll stay on the clear road. My example of roads criss-crossing all over the rocks at Chimney Rock. Actually that road is pretty clear and goes right past those rocks to the cattle gate and on out. I know those roads on the rocks are wildcat and more importantly so does my friend. He chooses to drive on them, because the rest of the trail doesn’t provide enough challenge for his buggy. His attitude about it is why I posted this. He couldn’t even tell me whether or not 7 Sisters is a real trail, so his attitude about it when he was told it isn’t, is whats disappointing. If it is a real trail, then that’s a bummer that he didn’t get to run it.

I’m not to worried about “the challenge”. I just enjoy being out there and I try to minimize my impact. I’m not a bunny hugger, I just don’t think they need anymore ammo than they already have against us.

I have done Martinez loop. Both times I followed trail leaders who were far more conscientious about this stuff than I am. We stayed on the clear road. Now I know the Luge is the road, but it very clearly hasn’t been used in years, therefore the bypass IS the clear road. I don’t advocate clearing open the Luge because it’s the road on the map. The desert is already reclaiming it(at least it was last time I was there).

Anyway, that’s my point of view.

 

[Tools R Us]

No, I'm not saying that's okay.....Moab and it's "crypto-biotic" crust is a very different place and has different rules.

Moab is unique, but AZ deserts are also fragile, slow growing environments that take many years to recover. Trail etiquette rules are mostly the same.

Even if you have to wait b/c people have blocked the trail (EXTREMELY inconsiderate in Moab where there is generally much more room than on AZ's trails) that's no excuse to create your own trail.

Many Moab trails are as tight as AZ trails and have a much higher traffic load. If your running the big name trails there it's almost guaranteed that your going to wait on others, if you don't have the time to kick back and enjoy the scenery, Moab experience, then those trails probably aren't for you.

However, since you brought up Moab, I have to ask a question. Did you do Hell's Revenge? Did you go into ANY "hot tub" (Mickey's, Carwash, or otherwise)? What about the Escalator? If you did.....technically, you were going "off trail" and destroying the little "microbes" that live in the rock/water basins. Personally, I think it's horse**** and I will continue to do those obstacles unless they are posted closed but that is the environmentalist and even some of Utah's BLM stance on the hot tubs.

I agree that those obstacles are fair game, if not they would be quickly spray painted with "NO". The clubs and local organizations do a great job of maintaining the trails, they are very well marked and very little trash.

 

[Sean K.]

My personal philosophy on trails is simple. If there is only one way to go, follow it and don’t make more trails. If there are multiple ways to go, break out a map ,GPS or walk the trail a bit and see if the correct route can be found. At the very least put forth a little effort to try to be right , within reason. Now if the original designated route has become un-used/overgrown/washed out and it is clear that it is no longer in use, then I say stay on the trail that is in use. Less impact that way and I can’t be accused of tearing up the desert. We all know that as the years pass most of these roads/trails we use are not the same as the one printed on the topo. Mother nature usually plays a big part in that. I won’t drive all over creation trying to stay exactly with the map, I’ll stay on the clear road. My example of roads criss-crossing all over the rocks at Chimney Rock. Actually that road is pretty clear and goes right past those rocks to the cattle gate and on out. I know those roads on the rocks are wildcat and more importantly so does my friend. He chooses to drive on them, because the rest of the trail doesn’t provide enough challenge for his buggy. His attitude about it is why I posted this. He couldn’t even tell me whether or not 7 Sisters is a real trail, so his attitude about it when he was told it isn’t, is whats disappointing. If it is a real trail, then that’s a bummer that he didn’t get to run it.

I’m not to worried about “the challenge”. I just enjoy being out there and I try to minimize my impact. I’m not a bunny hugger, I just don’t think they need anymore ammo than they already have against us.

I have done Martinez loop. Both times I followed trail leaders who were far more conscientious about this stuff than I am. We stayed on the clear road. Now I know the Luge is the road, but it very clearly hasn’t been used in years, therefore the bypass IS the clear road. I don’t advocate clearing open the Luge because it’s the road on the map. The desert is already reclaiming it(at least it was last time I was there).

Anyway, that’s my point of view.

And please don't think I disrespect your veiwpoint. It's valid. However, having opened trails with the BLM and knowing their guidelines (at least the ones in use about 3 years ago), I gather you aren't familiar with the rules regarding the open unless posted closed policy. Basically, if there's no harm, there's no foul.

In an instance where there are multiple paths, any can be used as long as there's no significant impact. Obviously the term "significant" can be highly subjective, but if someone is just driving over rocks, no vegetation is being harmed and you can't even tell someone went through after they pass.....where's the problem? BLM certainly didn't have a problem with it when we pointed out various, multiple lines through Lower Woodpecker when we held a comp event there several years ago.

While I agree with your common sense approach to using the trail that is in widespread use when the original has fallen out of use for whatever reason.....the BLM does not. In fact, TFO closed Jawbreaker as much for bypasses out of the wash (where the road originally ran) as they did for it being a riparian environment.

As for Martinez.....actually the Luge is NOT the road. The bypass was the original. I know the guy that drove the first vehicle off that obstacle and it was much more challenging then.

I was actually asking to see if perhaps you saw the "waterfall" obstacle on Martinez while you were there.

Here's a pic:

The actual trail is to the right of this little ledge.....but there's absolutely no damage to any vegetation or anything else by going up that ledge. IMO, and according to TFO employees (whose ruling holds far more weight than my lousy opinion), there's no problem with doing this obstacle....yet, from your posting, it would seem you would disapprove. Do you and if so, why?

Respectfully,
Sean

 

[Sean K.]

Moab is unique, but AZ deserts are also fragile, slow growing environments that take many years to recover. Trail etiquette rules are mostly the same.



Many Moab trails are as tight as AZ trails and have a much higher traffic load. If your running the big name trails there it's almost guaranteed that your going to wait on others, if you don't have the time to kick back and enjoy the scenery, Moab experience, then those trails probably aren't for you.



I agree that those obstacles are fair game, if not they would be quickly spray painted with "NO". The clubs and local organizations do a great job of maintaining the trails, they are very well marked and very little trash.

I was really referring to the microbiotic algae and the cryptobiotic crust in Moab as being different with different rules. Poor wording on my part. I apologize.

As for the tightness of trails in Moab.....I respectfully disagree. The only two trails I've seen in Moab that were even close to as tight as AZ's were Upper Helldorado and Proving Grounds before it was closed.

You are 100% correct that they see MUCH higher traffic than we do and I can only hope I made it completely clear that I do not condone or suggest anyone make their own path when the trail is blocked.

Hope that explains it.

Sean

 

[RHINO]

shotts they way i undestand it is you want no more than 3* difference bewteen flanges, so thats a first check i suppose. good luck with it.


my take on the whole trail thing is run whats already there, maybe some of the routes where originally taboo blazes, but the damage has been done so they are fair game so long as they are not marked off trying to re-vegetate(as i have seen several times).

 

[MaddBaggins]

I was actually asking to see if perhaps you saw the "waterfall" obstacle on Martinez while you were there.

Here's a pic:

The actual trail is to the right of this little ledge.....but there's absolutely no damage to any vegetation or anything else by going up that ledge. IMO, and according to TFO employees (whose ruling holds far more weight than my lousy opinion), there's no problem with doing this obstacle....yet, from your posting, it would seem you would disapprove. Do you and if so, why?

Respectfully,
Sean

Having avoided that waterfall and gone to the right twice now, I would agree that its OK. That whole spot is only what 50-60 feet wide and all goes one way. Hard to say what is really the route in such a small space. And you are right, it's solid rock, no harm no foul.
I avoided it because I didn't have any lockers or body armor before.
Supposedly in the Reddington Pass area, the only legal roads have signage. No signs means NOT A ROAD.. That area is littered with roads and most of them well used. Most of them not signed. This would be where I'm confused. I have different people telling me NO SIGNS means no road and others saying NO SIGNS means no harm. I wish I had some clarity on this subject. Maybe you can tell from my other posts, I want to do the right thing.

Alvin

 

[Sean K.]

Having avoided that waterfall and gone to the right twice now, I would agree that its OK. That whole spot is only what 50-60 feet wide and all goes one way. Hard to say what is really the route in such a small space. And you are right, it's solid rock, no harm no foul.
I avoided it because I didn't have any lockers or body armor before.
Supposedly in the Reddington Pass area, the only legal roads have signage. No signs means NOT A ROAD.. That area is littered with roads and most of them well used. Most of them not signed. This would be where I'm confused. I have different people telling me NO SIGNS means no road and others saying NO SIGNS means no harm. I wish I had some clarity on this subject. Maybe you can tell from my other posts, I want to do the right thing.

Alvin

I know you do....I can definitely tell. I think the problem is that recently activists both inside BLM and individual ones have been trying to push (with some success) the "closed unless posted open" policy.

That is a very damaging policy to our cause, not only for opening any new trails, but b/c it will also close trails just due to budget constraints b/c the BLM cannot afford to print, let alone pay for staff to sign all trails/routes. The Greenies know this and are pushing hard for this to become the rule rather than "Open unless posted closed".

You mentioned goodtimes....aka Brian. I know him and have wheeled with him in the past. Hopefully one day we can all get together and wheel and you'll understand what I'm talking about. The internet is a very hard medium to try to understand someone through. Best wishes to you and hope to see you out on the trail.

Take care,
Sean