Dealer Service Dept problem or mine?

[oftpiste]

I sure am appreciative of the education I've gotten here. Thanks in advance if there's more to come.

A month ago I took my new-to-me '03 LC to a dealer in Seattle for some baselining and other stuff. The car had always pulled a little - just enough to be noticeable - to the right so I told them about the problem and requested an alignment to cure it.

This dealer does not do service loaners but if your repair exceeds a certain dollar amount (which mine did) they will rent you a car from their in-house Avis (or whatever) and pick up the tab. I work at a job where I need a car on short notice and it's seriously inconvenient to have someone pick me up, take a cab etc. to and from the dealer.

When I picked it up I still felt it pulled to the right, about the same as it had before. To make sure I wasn't crazy I drove it some more and had other people drive it. They all said they felt it pull to the right and I hadn't said anything about it to them so figured I wasn't nuts. Granted, I didn't call back for a month but I really wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining things.

Today I called the dealer service "team leader" who basically said they'd stand behind the alignment but I need to leave the car with them again for at least half a day so they can see if it's 'something else' and since they don't know what it is he won't pick up the cost of the rental for me again.

My feeling is that if they did an alignment to solve a specific issue they should have road-tested the results and if they had they would have known it was still pulling and would have either re-done the alignment or investigated further while they had the car and I had the rental. They could have called and said "we need to fix XXXX" and it will cost $XXXX and you can pick it up on XXXXday" which would have been fine. I just want the goddam thing to go straight down the road without having to correct the direction all the time. I did tell them specifically why I wanted the alignment, they didn't suggest it could be anything else causing it and the problem wasn't fixed.

So, do I puff up my chest and tell them they should have caught this before and need to pick up the car rental for me or did I screw up and therefore should absorb the extra cost? If they won't play ball what do I do then? There is another dealer nearby.

I should say that working with dealer service is new to me. I have a nearly 30 year relationship with my indy shop for my other cars and it's a VERY different vibe. If it were them there's be no questions asked. Of course they know me and know I don't screw around with anyone. I'm not a wrench but I'm not completely ignorant either.

HALP!

 

[SWUtah]

I sure am appreciative of the education I've gotten here. Thanks in advance if there's more to come.

A month ago I took my new-to-me '03 LC to a dealer in Seattle for some baselining and other stuff. The car had always pulled a little - just enough to be noticeable - to the right so I told them about the problem and requested an alignment to cure it.

This dealer does not do service loaners but if your repair exceeds a certain dollar amount (which mine did) they will rent you a car from their in-house Avis (or whatever) and pick up the tab. I work at a job where I need a car on short notice and it's seriously inconvenient to have someone pick me up, take a cab etc. to and from the dealer.

When I picked it up I still felt it pulled to the right, about the same as it had before. To make sure I wasn't crazy I drove it some more and had other people drive it. They all said they felt it pull to the right and I hadn't said anything about it to them so figured I wasn't nuts. Granted, I didn't call back for a month but I really wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining things.

Today I called the dealer service "team leader" who basically said they'd stand behind the alignment but I need to leave the car with them again for at least half a day so they can see if it's 'something else' and since they don't know what it is he won't pick up the cost of the rental for me again.

My feeling is that if they did an alignment to solve a specific issue they should have road-tested the results and if they had they would have known it was still pulling and would have either re-done the alignment or investigated further while they had the car and I had the rental. They could have called and said "we need to fix XXXX" and it will cost $XXXX and you can pick it up on XXXXday" which would have been fine. I just want the goddam thing to go straight down the road without having to correct the direction all the time. I did tell them specifically why I wanted the alignment, they didn't suggest it could be anything else causing it and the problem wasn't fixed.

So, do I puff up my chest and tell them they should have caught this before and need to pick up the car rental for me or did I screw up and therefore should absorb the extra cost? If they won't play ball what do I do then? There is another dealer nearby.

I should say that working with dealer service is new to me. I have a nearly 30 year relationship with my indy shop for my other cars and it's a VERY different vibe. If it were them there's be no questions asked. Of course they know me and know I don't screw around with anyone. I'm not a wrench but I'm not completely ignorant either.

HALP!

Call and talk with the service manager

 

[e9999]

not obvious they need to pick the rental tab again since it was a courtesy to begin with and especially so if they offer a shuttle service. They probably should if you spent a ton of $ and they want you back, but I can see they would not feel compelled to do that.
I would not let them off the hook with only some vague mention of "something else" though. You could insist they redo the alignment that you paid for since it is possible they did not do it correctly and yes, they should have test driven it. If it's still not better then it is indeed likely something else and that would be your responsibility since you're the one who asked for an alignment specifically rather than a diagnostic.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Did you get a printout of the results of the alighnment

 

[hankinid]

Did you get a printout of the results of the alighnment

Beat me to the punch.

They should be able to dig up the computer's results (if they use a decent alignment system) showing before and after info. I can even get that from my boondock Joe-Bob tire shop I use on wife's truck. If pulling to the right was the original issue, the truck should have had a test drive by the dealer to verify she still wasn't pulling. Doesn't sound like that happened and / or dealer doesn't care.

Steve

 

[oftpiste]

I think they gave me that. I'll check the file. What should I look for on the alignment spec sheet?

Thanks everyone.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

Here is my opinion, for what it is worth:

This dealer does not do service loaners but if your repair exceeds a certain dollar amount (which mine did) they will rent you a car from their in-house Avis (or whatever) and pick up the tab.

If they do not know what the actual total will be, it is understandable that they will not automatically provide a rental car. With that said, I would have asked for reimbursement of the rental fees, if the repairs are found to be associated with the work previously perfomred and have that agreed upon up front.

When I picked it up I still felt it pulled to the right, about the same as it had before.

This would have been the appropriate time to bring this back to the dealer for a diagnostic, knowing that the alignment had just been completed, with paperwork in hand.

Today I called the dealer service "team leader" who basically said they'd stand behind the alignment but I need to leave the car with them again for at least half a day so they can see if it's 'something else' and since they don't know what it is he won't pick up the cost of the rental for me again.

My opinion is that this response is completely understandable and especially if 30 days has lapsed since you were last in.

My feeling is that if they did an alignment to solve a specific issue they should have road-tested the results and if they had they would have known it was still pulling and would have either re-done the alignment or investigated further while they had the car and I had the rental. They could have called and said "we need to fix XXXX" and it will cost $XXXX and you can pick it up on XXXXday" which would have been fine.

This response too is completely understandable.

I did tell them specifically why I wanted the alignment, they didn't suggest it could be anything else causing it and the problem wasn't fixed.

This is the best reason to get the service manager involved, as was previously suggested.

So, do I puff up my chest and tell them they should have caught this before and need to pick up the car rental for me

Not initially. My opinion here is to maintain a professional relationship, keeping your emotions in check until the service manager gets involved.

or did I screw up and therefore should absorb the extra cost?

I would say that initially yes. My opinion is that you waited way too long before bringing it back with the complaint. Sooner is always better. For now, absorb the cost of the rental until they come back with the assessment, and let them know that you NEED the rental because of your profession and have them agree up front to reimbursement if it is found to be something that is their fault (work not completed or work not completed correctly). If the assessment finds additional work involved to complete the fix that is not related to the alignment (tire excessively worn or low tire pressure, as an example), suck it up unless the new amount exceeds their preset limit and then ask for the reimbursement.

If they won't play ball what do I do then? There is another dealer nearby.

Of course, you always have the option of taking the car to another provider for work, but you should speak with this service manager first and if you are not satisfied, LET HIM KNOW that you are taking the vehicle to another dealer because you are NOT satisfied with their service. You may also want to get the dealer manager involved when having this conversation. I have been known to go all of the way up the "food chain".

Overall from my experience, being professional and knowing the decision making limits of the person you are dealing with helps tremendously with solving problems. Also be willing to stand and wait for the service or dealer managers to arrive or find out when they will be available and let the service person know that you will return when they are available to discuss your situation. Most managers want their clients to be happy and will move worlds to make it happen. Some should not be in the job of customer service and this needs to be pointed out to their managers directly.

Good luck and let us know how things proceed.

 

[TXLX100]

I would talk to the service manager if the service advisor isn't empowered enough to make those kinds of decisions. If it were me, and I had the time, I'd ask for an appointment where I could come in, drive it with a tech, wait while they check the alignment, and then test ride again.

For what is worth, a vehicle can pull with the alignment dead on, usually due to tires.

 

[oftpiste]

Thanks for the good input. Have to say I really dislike the whole 'working my way up the management chain' thing but if that's what it takes......

One thing should be noted, they specifically state that they stand behind their repairs 100% which made me feel OK about waiting to report it back again. I really kept thinking it was me! That is, until other drivers told me they felt it too.

Just dug out the receipt for the work, no specs on alignment before/after though their notes say in the alignment section "road test' twice. Its hard for me to imagine a road test would not have revealed the problem. It also says, 'check tires for wear & proper pressure, check caster, camber, tow and trust [sic] angles and adjust to factory specs' then it says 'road test' again.

so theoretically the tires aren't the problem and if they are, they should have noted that before?

Here's my plan (after reading the good advice): call back the "team manager" and request that instead of a drop-off at the appointment scheduled next week that they drive with me and check alignment while I wait. In the event the problem is still there after that I'll schedule for their diagnostic, rent their car and if the repairs exceed their rental threshold request reimbursement. If he won't do that then I guess I'm headed up the chain.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

If the paperwork indicates that they checked the tires for wear and pressure, then I agree that they should have noted a problem, if it was identified. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and I wish you all of the luck with this issue, but I would recommend taking your paperwork in with you so you can go through it item by item, if needed. It may not be needed, but it is always very handy to have on hand, as a reference.

 

[sleeoffroad]

From a shops point LCHardriver_02 pretty much summed it up for me as well. If you have a problem, then report it immediately even if you can not bring it back right then and there. Waiting 30 days, especially on alignment is not a good idea.

Put yourself in the shop's shoes. They have to accept their technician did a good job, so now you leave and 30 days later you report a pull. Maybe you hit a curb and now you want a free alignment. Not saying you did, but I can guarantee you somewhere there is someone that will pull this stunt.

We installed an alignment rack last year and we have discussed what our policies is regarding this. We want to be fair and give someone the time to make sure the vehicle drives fine, but not unlimited.

So this is what we have in terms of alignment terms:
" Please verify driveability as soon as possible. Alignment carries a 100 mile / 7 day guarantee."

But we also supply people with a printout of the result and save them on the machine. There are cases where alignment can technically be in spec, but you still have drive-ability issues related to other factors.

 

[oftpiste]

yeah, I really should have done it sooner and accept my responsibility for that. combination of time issues, uncertainty about my sensation of the problem and the fact I hate going back to people and telling them they didn't do the job.

I'm perfectly fine having them diagnose if it isn't the alignment, but is my plan to ask that they re-check the alignment before leaving the car reasonable from a shop perspective?

 

[super90]

+1 to what Christo said.

Seems the dealership is being more than reasonable based on the scenario.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

I'm perfectly fine having them diagnose if it isn't the alignment, but is my plan to ask that they re-check the alignment before leaving the car reasonable from a shop perspective?

From both perspectives, you want to be sure that you and the dealership are on the same page, seeing the same problem. That said, your first item of business should be to take the technician with you on a drive, if at all possible, to have them "see" exactly what you are seeing. If it is a minor pull, it is easy to miss but still extremely annoying. Especially for you, the customer.

If you both agree that the vehicle is pulling (and I would guess that you will), then yes, it is NOT unreasonable to ask for them to re-check the alignment, but Christo hits on some good points. It is hard to argue that the "new" miss alignment did not occur AFTER the original work was completed, given the time frame between visits. I would go in with the expectation that you will have to pay for another alignment, but then argue as hard (and professionally) as possible that this was the result of the original alignment work.

Good luck. Trying to keep the other person's perspective in mind can only help, but sometimes asking to talk with their manager also helps.

 

[12guns]

As mentioned your alignment specs will tell-all. Either it's within specs or it is not. "Pulling" to the right can be VERY subjective and is more times than not caused by the crown in the road or worn tires. For peace of mind ask another shop if they will do a free alignment check. A lot of shop don't charge if they are just checking, especially another dealership trying to secure your long term business. Hope it all works out!

 

[mgilvan]

Hey dude , I hope everything work out fine
I agree with what slee said, lot of people pull stunt like that, and unfortunately dealer looks at it that way
Well did they found out it was he alignment issue for sure? Or its something else ?
Any particular reason that you took your 10 yrs olde truck to a dealer ship ?
good luck

 

[OregonLC]

Aside from your issue, I would never take my truck to a dealer for alignment. A) they probably don't do enough to be good at them, b) high labor cost, and c) they don't understand the altered needs of a lifted truck. I have a guy at my local Les Schwab and alignment is all he does and he's very good at it. Not to mention he will suggest and work with me on what will work to correct a particular behavior problem rather than just going by the book.

 

[TXLX100]

You may have a very valid point with letter c). The other comments I think are, generally, untrue. Dealer technicians do tons of alignments and they better be right on, because dealer customers will demand it. A dealer will have access to manufacturer technical engineers if a unique issue arises as well as other tools some smaller shops may not have. Like checking the conicity of a tire when tires are suspected to be causing a pull.

Alignments are normally menu prices at dealers and are not "full grid labor." So while the tech may get paid 2 hours, the customer may only pay $125. So the price is usually not much more at a dealer. Plus any reputable dealer has a reputation to uphold just like any other business.

 

[OregonLC]

$125 for an alignment!?! I pay $50 and get an top class job!

The dealer wrenches are very good at using Toyota software, but that's where I say their advantage ends. A very generalized opinion, yes. I'm sure there are awesome techs, but with the service writer being between you and the tech you'd never know bad from good... until your truck pulls right.

 

[oftpiste]

Not sure if I made this clear, but the issue is that it still does the same pull as it did before the dealer alignment. It is minor, but I've tested it under many circumstances by setting the wheel straight and letting go.
Slowly while coasting on different types of roadbeds.
Faster " "
Slowly under soft and hard acceleration, faster under hard and soft, all on different surfaces and pavements.

The steering almost feels too sensitive and perhaps that's a symptom of another problem. There's literally no free play in the wheel. There are moments where it doesn't pull, and the pull is not egregious, but on a 4 hour round trip drive into the mountains yesterday it made my left hand tired from the constant but gentle correcting of the wheel. And it did cost $119.00. And I do have a 2" lift.

I went to the dealer because I got the sense (https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series...-local-lc-specialist-maintenance-repairs.html) that many here feel the dealers are the best. This dealer seems to get good reviews from its customers for the most part. The parts guy there has been great. I do have a fairly deep-seated distrust of dealers in general, but for no particular reason.

I fully acknowledge my guilt in waiting so long to go back, but at the end of the day I guess my beef is that the pull didn't get fixed. Call me crazy, but if I were a tech (and I"m definitely not!) who was road testing after an alignment I'd not just drive the thing around the block but make absolutely certain there was no pull and the when I let go of the wheel it went more-or-less straight down the road.

Guess I've put myself in a pickle. I get the reasons why they might object for sure. I'll call the team leader food tomorrow and see if I can't just come in for a drive around the block and an alignment check and if the check fails make a decision whether to go back to them or try another shop, maybe one that deals with lifted trucks more frequently? Wonder how I find one of those?
GAH!