CNG conversion

[livelarg]

The Miellennium Kit looks interesting.
How do you contact them? Do you have to subscribe to contact them?
Wonder how it works with OBD1 engines?

There are two types of kits: mixer and sequential injection. The sequential is a pro-only install, for late model cars. The mixer will work on carb or injected. It is a simple mixer type directly into intake. So obdI doesn't make a difference at all.
The engine computer adjusts to fuel mixture as normal.
The mixture type is the simplest and most dependable according to what I have read. The sequential injection takes computer set-up and diagnosis to keep working. It is what is put on most cars when you buy from dealers. That's why they are so expensive.

 

[livelarg]

I have been looking at these tanks for size. Not this particular tank, but the size.

http://ews.mybigcommerce.com/cng-type-2-tank-dot-certified-3-000-psi-model-cng1636-2-and-tank-valve/

Two of these would fit in the spare tire space under my truck. And would not effect ground Clearance. And add maybe 275 more lbs to the truck, the weight of about 2 people always riding with me. I. Could keep only about a quarter of a tank of real gas in the truck and keep extra weight down.

That would give me about 15 gallons of gas equivalent ( gge ). With the 10-12 mpg I'm getting, that would get me about 150 miles per fill-up.

With the price of CNG being about 1/3 the cost, it would be like getting about 33-36 mpg out of my truck!!!

 

[superstan26]

Also, some noteworthy pros of CNG are that because of the nearly carbon free attributes of CNG I am told that the life expectancy of the engine increases substancially, and also that the oil change intervals increase as well. My buddy runs a CNG fleet, and he states 25k mi oil changes during normal usage, and says his engines look like new since there is no carbon build up!

 

[burbuja96]

So what are the best sources to get a complete CNG kit ? ...best options ?

Would this application be compatible with a turbo or s/c ?

 

[livelarg]

So what are the best sources to get a complete CNG kit ? ...best options ?

Would this application be compatible with a turbo or s/c ?

I will not claim that it is the "best" place for a kit, but it is the one I am looking at getting. It has the best options that I have seen.
http://ews.mybigcommerce.com/millenn...s-model-cngm6/

there is another by a company called red Gas. It is cheaper, but has a few less options.

This is a link to a guy that put CNG on a VW 1.8 turbo engine, and has had it for two years with no problems.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=262819

 

[landtoy80]

Not sure if its possible but couldn't one cut a hole in the cargo floor to access the tire carrier space and build a box under the floor for the tanks? If needed, you could raise the cargo area floor. This way the tanks are protected from rocks, salt, mag chloride etc, and the vehicle is sealed from any leaking gases.

The extra mileage range is a big plus to me. I don't like to lug around gas cans.

I have close to 400,000 miles and motor is running strong, would there be any mechanical cons to running on CNG in a high mileage motor?

 

[livelarg]

Landtoy80:
You could also just put a tank behind third row seats. People put tanks in cars all the time. Others might disagree, but a local shop that does regulated installs showed me a new land cruiser that they finished with it in the back of interior.
And CNG is just a clean burning fuel. As someone else posted, it will not add any build-up. So might even be better for your truck.

 

[superstan26]

Not sure if its possible but couldn't one cut a hole in the cargo floor to access the tire carrier space and build a box under the floor for the tanks? If needed, you could raise the cargo area floor. This way the tanks are protected from rocks, salt, mag chloride etc, and the vehicle is sealed from any leaking gases.

The extra mileage range is a big plus to me. I don't like to lug around gas cans.

I have close to 400,000 miles and motor is running strong, would there be any mechanical cons to running on CNG in a high mileage motor?

I have considered making a box that utilizes the tire space, and raising the floor at the 3rd row section to increase capacity. But, I'm leaning more toward decreasing my gasoline tankand using gasoline as a reserve, and using primarily CNG.

As far as problems with high mileage, cng should benefit the motor. The 5.4 tritons used in Ford trucks had a cng option during early models. I was told their average life expectancy running bi fuel gasoline/CNG was increased to 400-700k mi.

 

[Qball]

Now if only California would allow this conversion and have installation shops I would be all over it!

 

[Qball]

I have close to 400,000 miles and motor is running strong, would there be any mechanical cons to running on CNG in a high mileage motor?

CNG is 120 or more octane so it is like racing fuel, but Because of that it burns at higher temp so just make sure your cooling system is up to par.

 

[superstan26]

I'm kinda bummed. I just measured my spare tire location with hopes to put some CNG tanks there, and came up with roughly 41"x25"x12". The best configuration I could find that was compatable only yielded me a range of approximately 140 miles. I would really like to have a minimum range of 200 miles.

Im still considering ditching my gasoline tank, and putting a gasoline cell in the tire location, then going with one long CNG tank in the old gas tank location. I've also considered cutting into my cabin space, but have all but decided against that.

If CNG stations were more abundant in my area I wouldn't bat an eye at the measley 13 gal capacity but as it is I would have to drive out of my way a couple of times a week for fill ups just commuting for work.

Any suggestions on how I can increase cng capacity?

 

[scotia]

Just caught up a bit on this. I can say to please stay away from "ebay" type kits. They use questionable parts and given the higher pressures of CNG, might be in your best interest to shy away if any were looking. Some even use copper fitting and tubing.
With speaking to my buddy here in Houston, basic kits are around $1200 san tank and fittings if I recall and go up from there. The system is stand alone and robs the gasoline injector pulses and AFR to fire the CNG injectors. I am giving you a very basic rundown until he gets back into the State. He is working with a major tuning company to make a forced induction CNG kit for use with SC's and Turbo's.
Regardless....the spendy part is the tank. I know the carbon fiber one that he has in his Raptor was $4k but now it weighs little to nothing. For what we initially spoke about with respect to the tank, a 9 gallon will fit where the spare tire would go under and 80. Not a very large tank for the price of a kit. If looking to do a full CNG rig, the factory tank can also be replaced. Keep in mind that this is dual fuel. Switches over when CNG has expired.
As for the in home filling station. Used seem to run about 3K on average and your gas company will increase the flow at your meter also giving you a commercial rate on gas prices ( here in Houston Area and maybe the state). You park your rig at night, fill it up at night and have a full tank in the morning. Fill times vary depending on tank size. There may also be a "fast fill" option but that will more than likely cost more. Where I reside, CNG looks to be around $2 a gallon. There is a great app for phones that shows station and current pricing in each state. There are 7 more stations going up in Houston this year. If you guys are really serious about this, it is a expensive but at current prices, will would pay for itself and think about the cost of fuel 5 years from now. I plan to hit up our commuter car as soon as the warranty expires.

 

[landtoy80]

Is there any problems at high altitudes like 11,000 or 12,000 ft with using CNG?

 

[scotia]

I dont believe so as it does grabs AFR from existing vehicle system. I will get more info when he gets back to town.

Works well at 150ft ASL...I can say that the high HP Raptor system froze(ice block) up at first and dual regulators were added to the system for the extra needed flow. More HP requires more flow. This also works with Diesel but it still does require some diesel in the process for lubrication purposes.

 

[landtoy80]

How does the EGR work when running on CNG? Does it turn on like when running gasoline?

 

[burbuja96]

Just caught up a bit on this. I can say to please stay away from "ebay" type kits. They use questionable parts and given the higher pressures of CNG, might be in your best interest to shy away if any were looking. Some even use copper fitting and tubing.
With speaking to my buddy here in Houston, basic kits are around $1200 san tank and fittings if I recall and go up from there. The system is stand alone and robs the gasoline injector pulses and AFR to fire the CNG injectors. I am giving you a very basic rundown until he gets back into the State. He is working with a major tuning company to make a forced induction CNG kit for use with SC's and Turbo's.
Regardless....the spendy part is the tank. I know the carbon fiber one that he has in his Raptor was $4k but now it weighs little to nothing. For what we initially spoke about with respect to the tank, a 9 gallon will fit where the spare tire would go under and 80. Not a very large tank for the price of a kit. If looking to do a full CNG rig, the factory tank can also be replaced. Keep in mind that this is dual fuel. Switches over when CNG has expired.
As for the in home filling station. Used seem to run about 3K on average and your gas company will increase the flow at your meter also giving you a commercial rate on gas prices ( here in Houston Area and maybe the state). You park your rig at night, fill it up at night and have a full tank in the morning. Fill times vary depending on tank size. There may also be a "fast fill" option but that will more than likely cost more. Where I reside, CNG looks to be around $2 a gallon. There is a great app for phones that shows station and current pricing in each state. There are 7 more stations going up in Houston this year. If you guys are really serious about this, it is a expensive but at current prices, will would pay for itself and think about the cost of fuel 5 years from now. I plan to hit up our commuter car as soon as the warranty expires.

Where in Houston if you dont mind me asking ? If possible I would like to see the truck and discuss my options . I am very interested on a well engineered kit that could be compatible with force induction.

 

[livelarg]

I have been doing the craislist thing and I think I can get two tanks and fittings for about $500-700. which would put me at the $1100-1400 for everything. then comes the install.

I'm leaving on a big 3 week adventure with the cruiser and the fam.

So I'll be picking up on this project when I come back.

 

[Polar Bear]

I've done a fair amount of research on the LPG conversion kits from Oz, and many of the owners experienced burned valves early on due to a lack of lubrication on the valve seats that would normally be provided from a gasoline intake charge. Many are running an automatic oiler system to drip lubricant into the intake charge. The cost of this oil and its rate of consumption reduced the fuel savings to the point that it was a push for running gasoline at the time I was doing my research.

Does CNG have these same issues with a lack of cylinder lubricity?

How's the power? My friend works for the local gas company whose commercial crew trucks run on CNG, and when they come to a large hill they have to switch back over to gasoline to make the climb.

Is this merely a design shortcoming in their crew trucks, or does it reflect in lower power output across the board regardless of the vehicle application?

Garbage truck, fleet, or bus drivers who run CNG please feel free to offer your experience...

 

[Howard705]

In the mid-90s was said to be slightly harder on valve seats but never heard of oil injection then. More than made up for by the fact that it doesn't contaminate oil in the bottom end. Never hear of valve seat problems these days in newer cars so guessing technology in valve seats these days has come far enough along to not be a problem. Then was around 10% power loss because of the high octane running advance/compression for gasoline, but willing to bet with right mapping, etc now could be less. Capacity is also based on pressure gas is stored. 15 years ago here was stored at 3000 PSI limited by tank construction and compressor capacity. More pressure=more capacity.

 

[livelarg]

In my limited research, I haven't seen anything about valve problems. Lots of fleet vehicles using CNG.
In my non expert analysis, whether gas or CNG. The oil is still the prime lubrication for the engine.
And yes, there is about a 10 percent power loss (25% gain for diesel).
I would rather drive a tad slower and get the equivant of 33mpg in my truck. ( paying 1/3 the price for the fuel)