AltFuel CNG conversion

[MJM]

CNG compressed natural gas.
Has anyone ever done this conversion? I understand the cost of the fuel maker that would allow me to put the CNG into the vehicle but that would be offset by the fact we have a natural gas well with lots of life left in it. Currently the well is only used to supply one house and has nearly 800lbs. of head pressure so it should last a long time.
MJM

 

[kitb]

I have done lpg to my fj60, it rocks
cng is close to the same type of conversion, however it has to be stored ot an extremely high pressure in the tank, therefore tanks are really expensive, more than 1000.00

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I have done lpg to my fj60, it rocks
cng is close to the same type of conversion, however it has to be stored ot an extremely high pressure in the tank, therefore tanks are really expensive, more than 1000.00

Did you fully convert over to lpg or are you running a dual system?

 

[kitb]

dual fuel all the way, that way you have a back-up system and I have about a 500 mile range without jerry cans,

check my threads or search dual fuel in the mud classifieds

 

[Volcano cruiser]

dual fuel all the way, that way you have a back-up system and I have about a 500 mile range without jerry cans,

check my threads or search dual fuel in the mud classifieds

That's my thinking. For me this is nothing urgent as I Central America they have no idea about CNG. However when I get back to the U.S., if the price for CNG is really cheap in comparison to diesel, and the cost of conversion can make the project doable, i.e. pay for itself in fuel savings over a year- 18 months let's say then I can see running CNG as a primary commuter fuel. I'd be driving 34 miles or so RT everyday to the commuter railhead. I'd still have my "backup" fuel capacity of almost 1k miles between my OEM and soon to be installed aux fuel tank filled with bio-diesel. Anyway, for now I'm following this topic, the price of conversions, possible tax credits for conversions , and fuel prices, closely.
John

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Thought that I'd post this site up. These guys are tightly tied in in the media with the T. Boone Pickens plan. Here is their page on CNG vehicle conversions. It has some info on cost and value of the conversion and names of companies that will do the conversion.http://www.cngnow.com/EN-US/Vehicles/Pages/ConverttoCNG.aspx

Here is the site on installation of the home fueling pumps.
http://www.myphill.com/

The CNG site lists several states that provide tax incentives for doing CNG conversions and installing the home fuel stations. Unfortunately, Washington, D.C., MD and VA are not on any of those lists. I find this odd as I know of at least 2 commericial CNG fuel stations in DC and the CNG current price sub site lists several in and around MD. Just one listed in VA and that isn't out where I might return to....

 

[kitb]

I don't get it, are you running a diesel or gas engine?

 

[KOOTENAY KRUZER]

I have been told that propane ( thus probably CNG) is to a diesel engine what nitrous oxide is to a gasoline engine. If that is correct I don't think you would want to use it as a primary fuel.

 

[kitb]

yes you can run a lpg injection to a diesel, look up bully dog, no you cannot run lpg through a diesel alone, pretty sure the same goes for gasoline, gasoline engine you can convert to straight lpg or go dual and run one or the other at the flick of a switch, I don't know if you can do that with cng, cng is real inexpensive, but it has 50% the btu's that gasoline does, where as lpg has 80% the btu's of gas, that will directly relate to how many mpg's you get

good enough?

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I don't get it, are you running a diesel or gas engine?

I'm running a diesel engine and am looking into the options for running a dual/hybrid CNG/diesel system. Here is an option:
BAF Technologies - Alternative Fuel Systems
Although this is not a perfect option for me. Ideally, I'd love to be able to run CNG for short haul commutes and flip a switch and run bio-diesel for long haul road trip and expeditions/camping trips and off road. One of the best things about running a diesel rig is that I have so many fuel options: Regular diesel(dino), Bio-diesel, SVO, WVO, even home heating oil (red fuel, illegal because it isn't taxed) in a pinch. I do not want to give that up to run CNG BUT with CNG at 1.96 - 3.00/gallon(equivalent) and diesel floating between 4.38 and 5.00/gallon I think that I need to a least look seriously at the option of running some form of a dual system. I haven't given much thought to LPG because frankly in the U.S. I haven't read that there is much of an infrastructure for it. CNG on the other hand as of today has hundreds of filling stations up and down the East coast, where I am from in the U.S. and a fair number in the metropolitan Washington, D.C. area. For the areas in VA where I hang out with no CNG filling station coverage, most of the homes in the area have natural gas service already and the home filling station would work fine.
John

 

[kitb]

can you show me where it says you can run a diesel engine on cng?

 

[OREJADEPERRO]

I'm in Colombia, South America.
I actually have a Toyota Land Cruiser FJ-43 (Middle wheelbase),
2F engine, and i installed CNG 2 years ago.

CNG is cheaper than Gasoline (About 50%).
CNG has more advantages than disadvantages.

If CNG is correctly installed, the loss of power is almost
unperceptible.
The key of a successfully CNG installation is the reducer
and mixer.
The best reducer you can get for a Land Cruiser,
is Tomassetto Achille ST-80
(ST 80 Reducer).
Reducer and mixer are the heart of a CNG fuel system.

It is not true that CNG is harmful for the engine.
My 2F has now the same compression than 2 years ago.
The head gasket is in perfect conditions after 2 years using
CNG.

Wih one CNG cylinder of 66 lts, you will get 90 miles of
autonomy, paying 50% less than gas.

CNG is the future.

 

[kitb]

good info ,
but I'm sure that you still can't run a diesel engine on cng or lpg, totally different engines

 

[Volcano cruiser]

can you show me where it says you can run a diesel engine on cng?

Umm, you need to read to the bottom of the page in the link that I left. There is a sub link to a pdf for hybrid CNG or LPG and Diesel hybrid engines which again you will need to click on and read. For your convenience:
http://www.baftechnologies.com/downloads/BAF Hybrid-Fuel Compression Engine System.pdf

good info ,
but I'm sure that you still can't run a diesel engine on cng or lpg, totally different engines

Ok,
Here is the pertinent section from the PDF:

"System Overview[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Available for medium-and heavy-duty diesel engines (including off-road).[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Available for stationary engines.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Operates on Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) or Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) and Diesel.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Patented, breakthrough technology in a digital system. This is the most cost-effective solution to reduce pollutants while still retaining the original power and performance of the engine.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Only product on the market universally adaptable to virtually any diesel engine through software programming –no engine modifications required.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Up to 80% displacement of diesel fuel.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Approximately 1/3 the cost of an engine repower.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Custom-designed fuel storage systems meet all regulatory safety requirements.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]New or existing vehicles."[/FONT]​

Again, just drawing from the company's literature, it appears that public works vehicles in NY state seem to be doing well using this hybrid natural gas/diesel engine mod. If one was to read further the company goes on to give the specs on their system. From what I can read, and again no claims to expertise, it appears that the company adds a set of injectors for the natural gas and reprograms the ECU to gain more precise control of the injection of both fuels. ​

"System Overview

[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2]​

[FONT=Arial,Arial]ECU provides management of both Natural Gas and diesel for reliable power and emissions control over a wide range of operating conditions.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]ECU maintains precise control of the diesel pilot fuel. Natural Gas is controlled using up to 6 Servojet injectors to meter fuel into the intake air stream.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]ECU contains 32-bit core micro-controller for fast calculations of required engine control parameters. The program is stored entirely in flash memory and, if desired, can be replaced or upgraded in the field. Separate EEPROM memory is used for storage and calibration data, maps, and fault codes.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]OEM interface using the J1939 standard data bus.[/FONT]Outputs:[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Up to 6 various types of injectors can be controlled. Injector control parameters: pull-in and hold-in currents and pull-in time are software programmable and can be set to match different injectors. Injector current is pulse-width-modulated (PWM) for low power dissipation.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]One Servmotoroutput is dedicated for control of diesel pilot positioner: 3 4A high side power switches for control of solenoids, relays andlamps; 3 0.5A low side power switches; 1 6A PWM output for control of mechanical actuator or solenoid.[/FONT]Inputs:[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]9 analog 0 to 5V inputs are available for reading system sensors. A typical system requires reading of throttle position, diesel actuator position, exhaust temperature, gas pressure, boost pressure and gas temperature. ECU also monitors battery voltage and actuator current via internal connections.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]10 digital inputs are available for reading RPM, vehicle speed, timing, binary sensors and other logic signals depending on system configuration. Out of these, 2 can utilize signal from magnetic pickup sensors (MPU), 1 optically insulated input, remaining inputs use to 0 to 5V logic.[/FONT]Communication Ports:[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]RS422 full duplex port for communication with programming and diagnostic software running on a laptop computer.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]CAN port for communication with OEM engine controllers on electronically controlled engines.[/FONT]Software:[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Various engine control functions can be applied. Generic software can be customized for the requirements of a specific application.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Typical software used for mechanical engines includes: idle control, torque mapping, engine RPM mapping, diesel pilot mapping, gas pressure compensation, manifold pressure compensation and PTO control.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Performs self-diagnostics of each sensor input. In case of sensor failure, the system is disabled and the fault code recorded.[/FONT]Calibration Software:[FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Windows-based for easy installation on a laptop computer.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Displays readings from all sensors, gas used, diesel pilot actuator position and various status flags.[/FONT][FONT=Wingdings 2,Wingdings 2][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]Calibration data can be uploaded to the ECU directly from the screen or from files and, if desired, downloaded back and stored in files."[/FONT]
​

[/FONT]

I'm still chewing this over so I really have more question than answers. For example, one trade off of this system is engine simplicity. Most of the B series engines got away with out having and ECU for awhile. If I really wanted to go this way I think that I'd have to upgrade to the 15B-FTE so that I could take advantage of it's modern programable ECU.[FONT=Arial,Arial]Again not my technology. I just posted it so that anyone with an interest in the subject could check it out the same way that I did and form their own opinion. John[/FONT]​

​

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I'm in Colombia, South America.
I actually have a Toyota Land Cruiser FJ-43 (Middle wheelbase),
2F engine, and i installed CNG 2 years ago.

CNG is cheaper than Gasoline (About 50%).
CNG has more advantages than disadvantages.

If CNG is correctly installed, the loss of power is almost
unperceptible.
The key of a successfully CNG installation is the reducer
and mixer.
The best reducer you can get for a Land Cruiser,
is Tomassetto Achille ST-80
(ST 80 Reducer).
Reducer and mixer are the heart of a CNG fuel system.

It is not true that CNG is harmful for the engine.
My 2F has now the same compression than 2 years ago.
The head gasket is in perfect conditions after 2 years using
CNG.

Wih one CNG cylinder of 66 lts, you will get 90 miles of
autonomy, paying 50% less than gas.

CNG is the future.

Primero,
Me encanta tu apodo, muy chistoso. I spent alot of time in Colombia, my last trip was just about a year ago. Do they have CNG filling stations now? Since when? Are there many of them? Where are they primarily located, in and around Bogota or Medellin? I guess I am amazed by the news that they are converting cars to CNG there given that for years gas cylinders were so tightly controlled there. John

 

[KOOTENAY KRUZER]

I haven't given much thought to LPG because frankly in the U.S. I haven't read that there is much of an infrastructure for it. John

Here in western Canada I don't know where you would find CNG except by using a home filling station if you live in a community that is served by natural gas (not available in my part of the country). However, most towns have at least one gas station selling LPG (known here as Propane). You fill your vehicles, BBQ tanks, and camper & motorhome tanks all at the same place. There is also a delivery service that will deliver Propane to your home if you use it for cooking and heating in your home.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Here in western Canada I don't know where you would find CNG except by using a home filling station if you live in a community that is served by natural gas (not available in my part of the country). However, most towns have at least one gas station selling LPG (known here as Propane). You fill your vehicles, BBQ tanks, and camper & motorhome tanks all at the same place. There is also a delivery service that will deliver Propane to your home if you use it for cooking and heating in your home.

Wayne,
How convenient. That would be cool to be able to fill up the tank for my grill and my car all at the same place. After reading your post I did some more research on LPG/propane fuel infrastructure in my area in the U.S. (when I'm in the U.S. that is). For folks who are curious they might want to check out this site:
http://afdc.energy.gov/afdc/stations/find_station.php

I was specifically looking for LPG filling stations, given that from what I have read unless you own a couple of hundred acres it would be really difficult to get permits etc to have an LPG tank (above or below ground) at home for your personal use. The availability of LPG filling stations open to the public really seems to depend on your area. For example if I move the search 50 miles around my GF zipcode there is just one place 20 miles away but around my dad's there are close to 10 filling stations within 50 miles. Again, it was purely a search to see what was out there. Fifty miles is a long way to go to tank up.
For me I'm looking for a bi-fuel application, i.e., to be able to run two different types of fuel and switch between them as needed. I just don't want to lose the flexibility that diesel affords me in terms of fuel flexibility (dino, bio, WVO,SVO, red.) I'm still researching this but LPG seems to be either a replacement for diesel or used as a fuel additive/extender(?) i.e., to be used along side diesel helping it to burn cleaner and last longer. As such, given that CNG in the U.S. (at least my home area) has more filling stations, has the home filling station option and can fuel the vehicle on it's own without losing the use of the existing diesel system, CNG has the present edge, at least as I'm considering the alternative fuel question. This could all be changed radically when/if the USG starts a program of rebates which would promote the opening of LPG/CNG filing stations and vehicle conversions.
John

 

[lc69hunter]

I plan on putting a refill station in my carport. Southwest Gas is very inexpensive, relatively speaking, and based on the cost at the house, my GGE cost should be about $1.07.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I plan on putting a refill station in my carport. Southwest Gas is very inexpensive, relatively speaking, and based on the cost at the house, my GGE cost should be about $1.07.

DANG that's cheap. Again where I live Washington Gas says that it isn't in the fueling station business (commerical or otherwise.) Where did you get your CNG conversion done on the cruiser and did your gas company have a rebate program to help you out on the conversion cost?

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I have been reading about CNG conversion kits and on at least one forum it seemed that EPA only certified CNG conversions for a few new vehicles. I knew that I had seen more places offering CNG conversion kits. I found the following places that offer kits, the first two offer non-EPA certified kits and installation using DOT certified cylinders. The last offers a kit that is neither EPA certified nor does it use DOT certified cylinders. No affiliation with anyone just what I found in a quick search.

http://mustafa.heritagewebdesign.com/~judjud5/cart/index.php?main_page=index

http://www.cngoutfitters.com/

http://ewsews.com/cnghome.html

It seems that whether or not one would need an EPA certificate depends on your state and how strict they are on altering the EPA approved emmissions bits in your rig. Here is a link from the EPA on conversions to CNG. It really seems that the EPA is trying to maintain a tight hold on aftermarket conversions.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/conversions.html It would seem to me that an easier rule would be you can do whatever conversion you want so long as at the end of the process the vehicle continues to meet the states emissions and highway safety standards. I have a 1980 BJ40. It has no EPA emmissions bits on my rig. I suspect that others are in the same boat. I would love to see if others could post sites for CNG conversion kits and shops in the U.S. and their experience with these products any problems that they had with vehicle inspections or emissions. Also prices paid for conversions and amount of time to do the conversion would be great as well.
John