Body work 101

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For those of you that want to know more about bodywork/prep for painting here goes...I had someone send me this and thought those of you doing your own restore might enjoy reading this for reference.

For a good solid reference, there is an outdated publication that still holds true with metal shaping, but mind you everything else in the book is pretty dated. That book is Chilton's Body work manual.

Now as far as what kind of surface is best to use filler over, be it etching primer, build primer, or bare metal...
The best answer to that question is to put the filler over bare metal, because, the best most adhesive properties of the filler will be limited to the adhesion of the primers. therefore, filling over bare metal is best, but you can fill over primers, but remember that cutting the primer is crucial. 80 grit at the FINEST. the best is 24 or 35 grit paper, and the best means to do that is by hand sanding or using a high speed circular sander such as an abrasive grinding disk on a die grinder or a high speed circular sander. the key is low speed though. You don't want to go fast or high speed. give it some pressure, and grind slow. This will keep from heating up the metal and will give you more grip. You can experiment and try it at a couple different speeds and pressures, and then feel the difference with your fingers. You can actually feel the deep cuts.

That is what is needed for good adhesion, and adhesion, rust and water are the 3 main failure points of filler. IF you eliminate all 3, then your filler should last 30-40 years.


Now...


I have been thinking about how I want to do this without confusing you, and trying really hard not to assume you know nothing at all...
So, here goes...

I thought the first thing I would do is give you a list of simple important supplies that you might not have handy, but shoudl have.
all of these items can be bought at advance auto parts, and a good autobody store.

1. red rags and white terry towels. (come in packages of 40 rags and 12 towels) should cost about $15 for one of each

2. Dawn dishwashing soap liquid

3. Red and gray 3M scotch-brite scuff pads

4. sandpaper in follow grits
35 grit long board
80 grit long board
180-220 grit DA disks
400 grit full sheets
600 grit full sheets
1000 grit half sheets
1500 grit half sheets
2000 grit half sheets

5. Sanding blocks in 6 inch and 9 inch length, should be hard rigid rubber, not flexible at all, and a 14 inch long board or air board

6. soft sanding sponges 3M stick-it makes some nice ones

7. different shaped hard foam rubber sanding blocks in as many sizes as you can find

8. single edge razor blades(boxes of 100 are pretty reasonable), and a razor blade scraper

9. masking tape in 1/4", 3/4", 2" sizes. 3M pressure sensative tape is best. 3M green is ultimate, but costly.

10. air tools. the more the merrier...
i. high speed air sander
ii. air blow gun
iii. die grinder with 24 grit 4 inch disks and wire brushes
i
v. air board (nice but not nessesary)
v. primer paint gun. conventional gun is fine, hvlp is not necessary but very helpful.

11. assorted masking paper and (personal recommendation) Norton Blue Sheeting in 16x350 roll. it's cheap, expendable and works well for masking. paint won't flake off of it and it clings nicely to cars.

12. paint stir sticks

13. paint strainers

14. cardboard, and lots of it

15. fillers such as... (should have all of these) EverCoat Z-Grip, Metal-2-Metal, USC Icing (evercoat thin ice)

15A. filler spreaders. in 4" and 6". get a bunch of them... cut some down to 2" and 1 inch.

16. sharpie marker

17. Body hammer and dolly block set

18. Clean up thinner. laquer thinner you can get it in a 5 gallon can and a pump for it.

Steps:

1. The first thing you should always do, most importantly is center the car in your work area, so that you have full access to everything, and every panel on the car at the same time. You should have enough room available around your car so that you can step at least 10 feet back from any given point to observe body lines and areas on the car that you are working on. There are 2 very important tools you must have in any shop to get good results.
i. lots of light, preferably florescent
ii. Your hands

If you don't have either, then don't try doing the bodywork yourself.

Florescent lights are dirt cheap to buy and use, because the bulbs are usually only 15 or 25 watt bulbs, compared to 60 or 75 watt that you normally use. incandescent lighting isn't enough for good work, as florescent will show you everything.


2. Once you have your car in a good position, for work, wash the whole car with Dawn or Ajax or some kitchen liquid dishwashing soap, and then dry it THOROUGHLY. blow it out with air in every seem and crack and make sure it is 100% bone dry. A very important part of bodywork is constantly blowing surfaces clean of dust and dirt and sanding dust. The proper way to do so, is to get a red rag (any rag will do, I just choose the red ones from advance auto because they are guaranteed clean, with no grease on them, when you pull them out of the package) and with a rag in one hand and an air blow gun in the other, wipe and blow. wipe adn blow until yoru compressor is blue in the face, and there is no dust on the car, nothing but metal would be left. It should be noted at this point that having a good air dryer system is key to keeping oil and water off the car from the compressor. Sometimes it helps to wet down the floor a little bit to keep the dust from blowing back up on teh car, but not necessarily. Now you are ready to start bodywork.

3. Start by walking around the car, with a black marker or pencil. I use a piece of 80 grit sandpaper, folded to the size of my thumb... walk around the car, and look at the reflection of the lights on the surface where ever possible. look for dings, nicks or anything that distorts the shape of the fluorescent light bulb on the surface. (this is another reason fluorescent light bulbs are important, because they are almost perfect in shape, and they make a good clean reflection on paint or semigloss primer(like what is found on new sheet metal such as your new door shells and 1/4 panel)

...anything that looks remotely suspect, circle it...

for places that you can't "see" any reflection, then use your most important tool (clean hands) and make passionate love to your car. molest it everywhere. but it's not a girlfriend so move your hands fast. you will feel every thing. try feeling out a ding that you already circled. Feel how it feels in your hand... and then "look" for that feeling all over. Anything that you can feel, you will see in your finish later. ANYTHING...

With this in mind circle everything. if the thing is really dinged up, when you are done, it should look like a big polk-a-dotted beast. It's ok... because you will get these spots fixed eventually. and you don't want to get 1/2 of tem and say "to heck with this, this is hard work" BE thorough dammit. That's why you get paid the big bucks as a bodyman (or at least keep lying to yourself and thinking this in your head )

4. Now you should have a good starting point to go from... and you are ready to start cutting the steel. Before you think of putting any filler in the car, first take your hand and determine how it is dented. Right here I could go off on a 5 page tangent of how to read a dent and how to hammer it flush again, but I will hold off until later, and for now, just to get you started, simply say, try to get the ding or dent as smooth as possible without filler, and make sure there are no high spots. low spots can be filled, but high spots need to be pounded out, unless you feel like sanding a hole in your car to get rid of it.

5. When cutting for filler use at most 80 grit paper. anything less coarse than that won't give it enouch bite to hold filler in place. this is where a lot of people miss and end up giving filler hte bad name that it has. Remember, this is 2003, filler is not what it used to be in the 60's, it's a lot better, when used correctly.

Take your high speed sander, or die grinder with 24 grit disks or just a plain piece of 80 grit or 35 grit paper in your hand, and scuff up the dings that you circled, and then scuff 3" past the circle in all directions, for room to feather.

6. Once you have every ding scuffed, make sure you have memorized approx. what shape and size the dents all were, for reference later. and now you can start to fill your bad spots. Get a 12"x12" square of flat cardboard from a box or something, and lay it down flat on your bench, spoon out a 4 inch dia. puddle of filler relatively flat on to the cardboard center. Then kneed up the hardener tube. I like to use blue hardener for the initial filler and then red hardener for skim coat icing. then, after kneading, draw a straight line across your puddle with the hardener. This will give you an approx 50:1 ratio. keep that in mind, and don't draw a straight fat line, just nice, steady medium line. I like to use a paint stir stick. preferably 1/2 or 1/3 of one to save on stir sticks to mix the filler. The proper way to mix your filler is hold the stick end into the puddle flat on the bottom, and at about a45 degree angle, so you are not stirring on it like a 3 year old in a sauce pot. and keeping the bottom of the stir stick flat agains the cardboard, stir it quickly and steady in circles. Make sure the whole mixture is the exact same color throughout then toss the stir stick and pick up your spreader and fill all areas until they look full when viewed from the side. Filler is glossy and you can use that to your advantage. Fill it full. and remember you can always hog it back down off if you need to, but it takes a bit more effort to have to put a second coat on.

7. Within 5-10 mins you should start cutting down the filler high spots and rough shaping it. You can use a hard block with either 35 or 40 grit, or a body file, on a file holder or in your hand it doesn't matter, they are pretty rigid. use straight edges to guide you. and get everything close to flush, but not quite. then switch over to 80 grit paper and continue to sand it. There are a bunch of tips and tricks I could put in here, but I want to try to stay basic. I will use a few...

for example:
always use a sanding block long enough to reach over top of the entire filler area, so that both edges of the block are touching metal that is straight. This will let the block naturally sand out the filler to the same height as the metal.

Always use a low grit sand paper to start and keep it relatively low, there is no need to attack putty with a 120 or higher grit paper. You want to get as much of the filler out to level without tearing the metal out around it and the best way to do this is to use a low grit and hog it.

You can always sand out the scratches in the filler with a DA later, but it takes a lot more to add filler to correct a low spot or a wave caused by high grit paper.

"feather" that's a key word when sanding. The edges of your filler shoudl be feathered into the surrounding metal. no hard lines. only feather edges. the wider the feather the better.

Feel everything with your hands constantly. you can pick up a low spot or a flaw a lot easier and faster with your hand than with your eye. For 99% of all work your eyes just won't do, you need to use your hands.

And the last tip I will put in here that is pretty important. While you are sanding a filled area, watch for bright shiney bare metal spots to show up. if you see a small area that seams to keep getting hit more than other areas, it might be a high spot or bump. So if you keep getting caught on it, bang it down with a hammer.

Wipe and blow as you sand. The more you wipe and blow, the better. Dust fills holes, and blowing it out of the pinholes will let filler work right.

8. This is the point when you can get out your spray can of paint. and this is one of the only times I will ever recommend anything that comes from a spray can.
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take your can of spray paint and lightly mist the repair area. This will be a guide coat to use for nit picking all the small little imperfections, not necessarily pinholes and scratches, but for very unsubstantial waves or low spots.
remember you are just filling you are not worried yet about small scratches, pinholes or nicks, those will be eliminated with your skim coat of polyester fill later.

Once the paint is dried out, take your block again, with 80 grit paper and sand out the whole area very lightly, and you will see the guide coat disappear. and low spots will stay painted. now you can "see" roughly what still needs to be filled. So fill again and get the whole surface smooth, keep repeating as needed. if you don't feel confident, then dig it all out and start over again. You can redo it as many times as it takes to get it right, and if you don't get it right, then you will have to live with it for the lifetime of the paint job.


WIPE AND BLOW! I can't say it enough. it is very important.


9. Now that you have a relatively smooth flat fill spots on your car. mix up some USC or Evercoat "Icing" or "thin ice" polyester skim coat. Mix it in the same manner as you did the filler, but mix a 2 inch or 3 inch puddle. skim coating doesn't take a lot of filler to do it. So mix up a spot and with a good crisp edge on your spreader, get a roll of icing on the edge of the spreader, and holding it tight to the car drag it across in smooth long strokes. hold it at a tight angle but don't put too much icing on at one time. You should have less than 1/16" inch at the thickest of this stuff. just try not to work it too much and get it to lay as flat as the surface of the car. when you are done the filled spot should be as smooth and flat as the car. once it is filled, stare down the side of the area. look at the gloss and you will be able to see if it is filled enough. Any waves or ripples that look too deep to sand out should get a second coating.

Block sand this in the same manner as you did the filler, but use only 80 grit paper. no pressure, keep the block flat, move around-don't stay in the same spot. make a circle pattern with the block. Like keep the block in the same position but sand in a circle (don't twist the block) then every 3 strokes give the block an 1/8 turn. then back to the original position. Just be sure that you are looking at your fill spot from 360 degrees and not just across one way. like feel up and down, and side to side, and at diagonals.
feather edge the spot. Don't worry about scratches, just don't press hard. it's the strokes that sand, not the pressure. pressure is destructive. Now you are ready for a DA sander.

10. Get your DA sander out and with 180 or 220. I prefer 220... lightly LIGHTLY sand out the scratches int eh putty. 5 or 6 strokes. that's all. You shouldn't have more than 20 mins invested in DA sanding an entire car. Also at this time, DA sand out any small chips or knicks that you might have in any of the remaining paint. just keep the sander moving, don't use pressure, but KEEP IT FLAT. and once again feather out chips and scratches that are in the paint.

Change your paper very often. very often. that is why it comes in rolls of 100 sheets. keep a good hard biting sheet on the sander at all times.

11. Now get a red scotch-brite pad and scuff up the entire car, over all of the body work too. This will be your final scuffing for primer. Make sure you get everything be thorough and don't skip anything. Get into every crack and get the black electricote primer dulled down. You shouldn't see any thing shiney at all except metal.


12. Now you should be ready for primer. prepsol everything of course. some people use a spray bottle and a rag for prepsol some people like to use 2 rags. I use 2 rags just incase there is some grease or wax that might be hard to remove, usign 2 rags should make it easier to remove it.
Mask as needed and spray.

here is a tricky situation.
There are many different types of primer and ways to do it. Some people like to put an etching primer down and then put a building primer over top of that. I like to use a single stage product. because it's cheaper, adn it works just the same now that they did away with the good self etching primers such as DP-90. now it's DP-90LF and that's crap. THe stuff I use is called PPG NCP-270 or NCP-271 depending on color. It is a 2 part epoxy primer that is high build enough to take care of small things, but remember that you want to do all your bodywork with filler not primer. high build primers should not be used in excess amounts, so as to prevent cracking and peeling and chipping.

Apply as directed by the manufacture. There are technical data sheets available for all paints adn primers, so if you follow their data sheet info, then you shouldn't have any problems.

After primering, let it dry and then before unmasking, get a can of guide coat or SEM trim black and give the whole car a nice even guide coat for wetsanding later.


I'll leave off here, this is plenty to digest or give you a good start...
 
Nothing like taking the book away before the end, nice tech, looking forward to chapter II. Cheers, Larry
 
First.........if you put filler directly on metal it will promote rust(air pockets)

Two ..he is right filler is not good directly on primer that is why we use sealer on bare metal. :beer:
 
First.........if you put filler directly on metal it will promote rust(air pockets)

Two ..he is right filler is not good directly on primer that is why we use sealer on bare metal. :beer:
x2. plastic filler sweats with temp. changes. if u're doing something for u'reself that u plan on keeping, u need to put down an epoxy primer to seal the metal from the filler. some use dp but i prefer southern polurethanes. let it dry & apply the filler over it. once u get the filler blocked out, then u can squirt it with a surfacer primer. i prefer k36. try to finish the filler with at least 120 if not 180 to cut back on some of the soaking-in.
 
i hope u made the right choice for u're application. instead of listening to anyone, u should ultimately rely on common sense. moisture of any kind touching bare metal will eventually rust. anyone over the age of 12 has figured that out. why would u use a product that sweats,such as plastic filler, on bare metal?? common sense says, WRONG ANSWER!!!! that's why all of us guys who have been in the business for 20-30 years put down a sealer such as epoxy, first.
 
The problem I am having is "experts" who write into forums, like you "Maximum Destruction", are saying one thing. Than I find a CREDIBLE source online saying the exact opposite. You can see why there is so much miss info going around. I don't understand the "common sense" of why body filler would "sweat". I could see it absorbing moisture, but not sweating. Primer over the filler would stop the absorption. Is that not common sense?:beer:
 
When you apply bondo or the fibrrglass version of bondo or whatever you will have air bubbles...I dont care what you do. However these airbubbles will eventually expand or blow open(for a lack of a better term) and when That happends air,water or moisture will get in. That bondo may stick good to bare metal but mother nature will beat the heck out of that metal over time. You stand a much better chance with the sealer over the bare metal then apply your material. If you live in the desert.........fine do what you wish but the folks that live and work in the rust belt know better.:beer:


I will not argue over my experience. Its not worth it.
The problem I am having is "experts" who write into forums, like you "Maximum Destruction", are saying one thing. Than I find a CREDIBLE source online saying the exact opposite. You can see why there is so much miss info going around. I don't understand the "common sense" of why body filler would "sweat". I could see it absorbing moisture, but not sweating. Primer over the filler would stop the absorption. Is that not common sense?:beer:
 
The problem I am having is "experts" who write into forums, like you "Maximum Destruction", are saying one thing. Than I find a CREDIBLE source online saying the exact opposite. You can see why there is so much miss info going around. I don't understand the "common sense" of why body filler would "sweat". I could see it absorbing moisture, but not sweating. Primer over the filler would stop the absorption. Is that not common sense?:beer:
I've got a pretty rusty 78 that I'm working on. At some point the PO began some some body work that you could more or less track around the rear quarters to a fender bender in the drivers-side rear quarter. I've since removed all the filler, which from what i could tell looked like it was applied directly to the steel. I'm repairing lots of seam rust on this baby. i think this cruiser was stored in a very damp environment for a long time (from the general look of everything/limited info from PO) with lots of the lap joint corrosion happily eating itself away and surface rust developing everywhere. The whole drivers side is a bit rustier than the passenger side - like that was next to the damp, outside wall of the barn, etc. The odd thing is - the filler areas have no rust. I can see some pretty heavy grinding on the fender crash area where the filler was heavier and no rust. Lots of clean original steel had a light layer of filler and no rust. I'm leaning toward filler on metal but would like to hear some more experienced opinions. :confused:
 
The problem I am having is "experts" who write into forums, like you "Maximum Destruction", are saying one thing. Than I find a CREDIBLE source online saying the exact opposite. You can see why there is so much miss info going around. I don't understand the "common sense" of why body filler would "sweat". I could see it absorbing moisture, but not sweating. Primer over the filler would stop the absorption. Is that not common sense?:beer:
no need to get u're panties in a wad. like i said, i hope u made the right choice for U'RE application. what i say is not meant to be taken as the gospel, it's simply info. that has worked for me over the last 25 years as a professional restorer & collision tech. u can take it or leave it.
 
The problem I am having is "experts" who write into forums, like you "Maximum Destruction", are saying one thing. Than I find a CREDIBLE source online saying the exact opposite. You can see why there is so much miss info going around. I don't understand the "common sense" of why body filler would "sweat". I could see it absorbing moisture, but not sweating. Primer over the filler would stop the absorption. Is that not common sense?:beer:
i just took the time to read the write up u offered by u're credible source. do u not understand what he is saying?#1 drys by heat(creates condensation=rust) #2 if metal is cool, dries form outside in, trapping moisture(=rust),etc,etc. the epoxy takes all the bull65it out of the equation so there is no risk of the above. also, how credible do u feel this fella is when he admits he doesn't have the skill set to even wipe a panel without it being LUMPY?!!
 
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Clueless? Maximum destruction you make me laugh. If following manufacturers suggestions is clueless than guilty as charged. I wont hijack this thread any longer with petty back and forth over who is wrong or right. You, Maximum destruction, are the "expert".:lol: I am extremely happy that I did not have you do any work for me.:flipoff2:
 
Clueless? Maximum destruction you make me laugh. If following manufacturers suggestions is clueless than guilty as charged. I wont hijack this thread any longer with petty back and forth over who is wrong or right. You, Maximum destruction, are the "expert".:lol: I am extremely happy that I did not have you do any work for me.:flipoff2:
it's obvious u can't afford (me) quality work. that"s why u comb these threads looking for some diy info. there is more than 1 other fella on here who gave u the same info. as myself but u seem to want to call me out only. a few of us (copasspupil,cruiser88,myself,etc.) have been around this stuff all our adult lives & i don't believe anyone of us would intentionally give bogus info. or try to lead someone in the wrong direction. we're all here for the love of these old trucks & we enjoy helping others be able to save some money & learn by doing it themselves. it's my belief that none of us give a $hit about how u're gonna do u'res or who u trust with the correct method, but in no way shape or form is it correct etiquette to come on here & flame the very people who offer u the info. u seek. maybe u should visit pirate, they get along great with guys like u. as far as making u laugh, please post up pics as u proceed so myself & others may have a few chuckles as well. may the fleas of 1000 camels infest u're pubic hair.:flipoff2:back at ya".
 
I never came on this thread with the intention to flame you or anyone else. I posted the body filler link for some helpful information, and to make a point about how annoying miss information is. I believe there are a lot of people out there that have questions, like me, who want straight correct answers. It is apparent that people do things differently and both ways seem to work. Reed Overson's body filler write up was informative and followed manufacturers instructions, so I went that route. The reason I called you out was for your response in message 8. :cheers:
 
I never came on this thread with the intention to flame you or anyone else. I posted the body filler link for some helpful information, and to make a point about how annoying miss information is. I believe there are a lot of people out there that have questions, like me, who want straight correct answers. It is apparent that people do things differently and both ways seem to work. Reed Overson's body filler write up was informative and followed manufacturers instructions, so I went that route. The reason I called you out was for your response in message 8. :cheers:
hello mark. may i ask what was wrong w/ my reply in #8? i simply said i hope u chose the correct method for u're application( humidity, moisture, etc..).as far as the age 12 goes, any kid who left a metal toy outside over night ended up with a rusty toy due to humidity & or condensation. reed overson himself said a few things of interest that imho should be thought about, thus relying on the common sense i mentioned. 1st he tells u that filler dries(cures) creating heat. this creates moisture, just like on a real hot day. ground moisture is evaporated into the atmosphere later creating thunderstorms & rain. 2nd he says that on cold days, the filler dries from the outside in, trapping moisture which definitely isn't good against bare metal, all the while saying it isn't necessary to seal the metal before filling. does this honestly make sense to u??u can ask 100 people a question & u may get 100 different answers. again, u must rely on common sense, be able to weed out the bull3&^%, & read between the lines. u are correct when u say both methods work, but sealing will definietly outlast the other. in my resto. days, every car went to bare metal & then was epoxied before filler. these people were spending between 10,000 & 45,000 dollars so i could not afford to take chances by cutting corners, nor could i give a lifetime guarantee to those who chose not to apply a sealer first. it's only a couple hundred dollars & 1 more step to assure u'reself the best possible base to start from, again making real good sense to me. now in the collision industry, almost no one in a production shop takes the time to put down epoxy first because it cuts down on production & increases cost. also, most people only drive cars for 5 or 6 years before trading so it never becomes an issue. anyways, best of luck to u, whichever way u choose & u may now remove 500 camels worth of fleas from u're pubic hair. the rest to be removed on completion of u're truck, provided u post up plenty of pics. lol
 
....a nod,,,is as good as a wink,,,
to a blind horse...
 

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