AltFuel Biodiesel

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dogstarmessenger said:
anyone else running bio notice a slight drop in mpg fuel consumption?
Click to expand...
I have noticed a milage hit with Bio. By the numbers it is 5% less energy dense than petro-diesel and so you should see at least that hit in milage. It can be worse though if the engine is not tuned for it. Generally you want your motor slightly advance timed for Bio's higher cetane and lower flash point. I did this on my Didge and it helped. I havent tried it on my BJ70 yet though...
 
I'm planning to take the plunge when I pick up my hj60 next week... I've found a lot of cheerleading about biodiesel (which is great) but have had trouble finding anything much on the drawbacks or negative publicity. That is to say: plenty of numbers on how cheap, good for the air, CO2 neutral, etc, but no numbers on engine life, injector clogging, pump wear....

Since I don't believe anything is 100% perfect in the automotive world, I'm sure someone out there has horror stories- anyone know of any that can be read about online?

And I'm even more interested in SVO than biodiesel- where I live the temp *never* drops below 70 degrees and daytime temps in the shade are usually 80-90, so low-temp gelling isn't an issue. Anyone have any experience with SVO in a 2H? My plan to preheat the SVO is to run copper tubing around the exhaust pipe on the way to the pump.
Anyone know if a coolant thermostat will work with oil? I am thinking that maybe a Tstat housing off of some little car could be hooked into the system...

Thanks
 
dogstarmessenger said:
Planning on eventually installing a SVO setup on my HJ60
since Im here in No. California I was going to get the kit or ideas for my own set up from
Neoteric Biofuels in Berkeley,heres their link -hope it helps you on your way
www.biofuels.ca
Click to expand...


What is an SVO set up?


TB
 
A SVO setup lets you burn (Straight Vegatable Oil) in your diesel enginne thru a heating and filtering process.
This is the way Henry? Dieisel first designed the diesel engine to work!
so that farmers could be self sufficiant growing their own fuel
But that was to easy for big company's(governments) they need to get their profits on a basically stolen limeted natural resource
go figure
 
thanks for the links Jim.
I'm going to hit the manual for a bit, then draw up what I'm thinking of doing... hope to have something to share soon.
 
zander said:
I have noticed a milage hit with Bio. By the numbers it is 5% less energy dense than petro-diesel and so you should see at least that hit in milage. It can be worse though if the engine is not tuned for it. Generally you want your motor slightly advance timed for Bio's higher cetane and lower flash point. I did this on my Didge and it helped. I havent tried it on my BJ70 yet though...
Click to expand...


I noticed the same thing with my '01 TDI Jetta. The trouble is that bio isnt as thermaly efficient as diesel. It doesnt have the BTU's the diesel does. Its best using it in the B20-to-50% range.



TB
 
sandcruiser said:
Since I don't believe anything is 100% perfect in the automotive world, I'm sure someone out there has horror stories- anyone know of any that can be read about online?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Thats a fair point. A lot of people running it are zealots who will tell you there is no downside. I did a fair amount of research before filling the tank of my $40,000 Dodge truck and was worried like you are. The best study I came across that was most applicable was one by the National Park Service who had put the same truck on 100% bio for 100,000 miles to test it out for Park use. They disassembled the motor every 10-20,000 miles and checked it for wear against a control (petro diesel) and dyno tested it each time. They found that if anything the truck on bio had less wear and less injector problems due to the higher lubricity and cetane of bio. These studies and several others by agencies like NREL are on the www.biodiesel.org National Biodiesel Board site.

Here is my list of downsides after running it for a little over a year with three vehicles of experience. They are mostly related to having your own pump and refill set up as I dont have commercial pumps close enough to use regularly.

1. You actually have to think about your fuel source and do stuff other than show up at any gas station and fill up. (Unless you have commercial bio pumps in your area) You chave to arrange for a bulk tank to be filled, front he money for several months of fuel at a time etc.

2. You are now the owner of yoru own gas station. Cool right? sort of. While this is pretty convenient, You have to order and change pump filters, clean the tank if something gets in there, clean up spills, worry about security etc.

3. Everyone asks you about it. I actually like talking about it, but I spend a non trivial amount of time ansering all the same questions over and over.

4. Your fuel source is often not certified or coming from highly regulated and tested sources. Its coming from smaller distributors and makers and the chance of something not being right with it is higher. I giot a batch of fuel once that still had too much parafin in it and it clogged my pump filter. If I had not had that pump filter it would have clogged my vehicles filter. I had to change the pump filter several times to work through it all.

5. Spillage on your vehicles paint must be cleaned immediately as it will eventually eat the paint.

6. You may find after a while that there are some parts of you fuel system that come into cotnact with teh Bio that are not compatable i found this with teh fuel return hose on my trucks refill line. It wasnt a big problem but it was something unexpected that I had to deal with.

7. As mentioned before there is an effiency hit. It is a less energy dense fuel by about 5%, and you can see results worse than this depending on your engine and its timing, tuning etc.

8. It works less well in the cold. You need to use additives or blends if in cold temps.

9. People often say that the increase in N0x is minimal. I have seen studies that show up to a 20% increase. So while bio use really does lower the other emission gasses by huge amounts or completely negates them, N0x issue is not trivial.

Anyway thats my 2 cents ont eh down sides, there are aguments against each of these as well, but I will leave those to others. I would like to hear what you come up with.
 
Interesting thread and it's a fine thing to experiment with real alternatives.

I have a question for Jim and other home brewers. What are you doing with your waste stream?

For example, you're using water to "wash" your brew, which means you're neutralizing excess methoxide. Is the pH of the wash high enough to cause problems?

Is glycerine biodegradable or does it have any adverse effects on soil biota or sewer or septic systems?

Methanol might be considered a co-solvent (I know which chemist to ask when I see him again). Co-solvency means compounds and chemicals that are normally bound in the soil can be liberated in the presence of a solvent that is miscible in water.

I just flashed on these things as I read through, and when the topic turned to possible drawbacks, I thought I would ask. If and when I own a diesel I will be onboard with biofuel. But I live in a semi-rural area. I drink the water straight out of the ground, 100 feet from my drainfield. And if I go to producing my own fuel, eventually I will be forced to make some conscious decisions about the waste products.
 
I can answere what I am doing with my homebrew waste but I am no chemist. My waste water goes into the town sewer. From what I have read it is no more harmful than bath water. Ditto Glycerine - it biodegrades. I don't know what it would do to a septic system.

Zander - interesting thoughts. I am always spilling BD on my paint - after how long did you notice it effects the paint?
 
theo said:
Interesting thread and it's a fine thing to experiment with real alternatives.

I have a question for Jim and other home brewers. What are you doing with your waste stream?

For example, you're using water to "wash" your brew, which means you're neutralizing excess methoxide. Is the pH of the wash high enough to cause problems?

Is glycerine biodegradable or does it have any adverse effects on soil biota or sewer or septic systems?

Methanol might be considered a co-solvent (I know which chemist to ask when I see him again). Co-solvency means compounds and chemicals that are normally bound in the soil can be liberated in the presence of a solvent that is miscible in water.

I just flashed on these things as I read through, and when the topic turned to possible drawbacks, I thought I would ask. If and when I own a diesel I will be onboard with biofuel. But I live in a semi-rural area. I drink the water straight out of the ground, 100 feet from my drainfield. And if I go to producing my own fuel, eventually I will be forced to make some conscious decisions about the waste products.
Click to expand...

I have a pretty substantial chemistry background, so I can try to answer your questions:
Glycerol is harmless, and will not do anything to a septic system.
the methoxide is less harmless. Methanol per se is not a problem, and will evaporate quickly. However, and methoxide it leaves NaOH behind, which is extremely caustic, and will eath through almost anything with time. This should be discarded professionally. small amounts will be neutralized easily in the septic system, but large amounts could kill the bacterial fauna of a wast station, for example. maybe one should know if the station dealing with one's waste has an acid/base divider/neutralizer.

in any case, I would not recommend just dumping the stuff (washes as well), when it goes straight into the soil/groundwater.

just my 2c
 
Thanks for the 'drawbacks' folks.
While I look forward to biodiesel in the future, right now I'm leaning towards SVO (and WVO) because from what I can tell, the biggest hit with SVO is that it gels at low temps.
Is there something else I'm missing here?
Believe it or not, the other "problem" I see all the time is people saying that with SVO you've got to make vehicle modifications.... I don't know about you, but heck, for me that is more of a plus than a minus! How many times do I get to honestly tell my wife: "But Honey, this mod with actually *SAVE* us money!" ? :)
 
Jim_Phillips said:
Zander - interesting thoughts. I am always spilling BD on my paint - after how long did you notice it effects the paint?
Click to expand...

I have been careful to clean up any spills on my paint and hacve not seen this effect there. I think the clearcoat also gives some protection. My bio distributor was the one who warned me about, he said he has seen it happen but did not give a time frame. The paint on my pump and filterhead however has certainly come off anywhere the bio touched it.
 
Biodeisel Is Eating Up The Injector Pump Seals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On My 86 Hj60
I Changed Up The Fuel Lines And Figured I Was In The Clear
Been Running 100% Bio For 3 Months Now Andit Is Definatily Eating Up My Injector Pump
Time To Do The Svo Conversion
Biodeisel Is Very Corosive To All Rubbers
 
So what's the solution besides SVO? Are there replacement seals that can handle the BioD like the special fuel lines??

B
 
dogstarmsgnr,
tell me what is happening to your pump. i'd love specifics.
how many miles on you hj60?
did you replace any of the fuel lines with a BD resistant hose?
how is the fuel feed pump handling the BD?

very curious about this.
-mike
 
Please describe the failure mode you are seeing when you get a chance and what type of motor it is. All of us running bio are curious...
 
nothing failing yet just seepage around all the seals of the injector pump
probobly start to suck air soon then lose efficiency... then compression..ect..
dont know about replacment seals that are prone to bio
engine has 265K kilometeters only 1 hose needed replacing under the hood where nit comes up from the bottom where it is all metal lines back from there

try to analize it further when this rain lets up
maybe see if i cant get a good pic
 
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